Author Topic: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?  (Read 38202 times)

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Offline Brietta

The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Brietta

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2017, 01:08:52 AM »


SIL pic credit - Route Madeleine took to high tea on 3 May - lamppost dog went to sniff then crossed the road to the tapas/secondary reception entrance.

That after having smelt the aforementioned towel, next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically next to block 5’s apartment 5A, the first tracker-dog headed toward the door of that apartment, soon whirled about in the direction of block 4, bypassing block 5 along a route (the corridor) that goes around that block and gives unto a path that runs between this block and the resort’s leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). The dog went into the path on the left, heading toward the main road (Francisco Gentil Martins). Once there, he crossed the street and close to block 6’s wall, turned right, heading toward the contiguous parking area, more particularly toward a light post where he sniffed the ground. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the resort’s access zone, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, but finally lost interest in the search, i.e lost the scent.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

Nothing strange about a sniffer dog finding Madeleine's scent at this location when she crossed there on 3 May for high tea and used that route to and from the creche.

The dogs weren't deployed for this task until 8th May and the scent was lost at the lampost at the other side from where the parked vehicle in SIL's photograph is located
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 01:11:20 AM by Brietta »
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Online Robittybob1

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Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2017, 05:42:04 AM »
According to Fiona Payne Kate said the patio door was left unlocked so that Madeleine could get out if she needed to.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Text from FP rogatory: "Reply
 'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.
 
 01.15.57
 1485
 'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''
 
 
 Reply
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 1485
 'Did she say whether she had locked or''
 
 
 Reply
 'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'.
 
 
 1485
 'Left the patio''
 
 
 Reply
 'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation'."

In there are the words the doors unlocked which clearly means both doors were unlocked at least from the inside. Solely for the purpose of allowing Madeleine to get out if she woke up. So why would Gerry say his daughter never went outside?  OK it was he considered the evidence of an abduction overwhelming.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 05:44:26 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline G-Unit

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2017, 07:49:33 AM »
The dogs weren't deployed for this task until 8th May and the scent was lost at the lampost at the other side from where the parked vehicle in SIL's photograph is located

The dogs were used twice, first on 4th May;

He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.

- That after having smelt the aforementioned towel, next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically next to block 5’s apartment 5A, the first tracker-dog headed toward the door of that apartment, soon whirled about in the direction of block 4, bypassing block 5 along a route (the corridor) that goes around that block and gives unto a path that runs between this block and the resort’s leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). The dog went into the path on the left, heading toward the main road (Francisco Gentil Martins). Once there, he crossed the street and close to block 6’s wall, turned right, heading toward the contiguous parking area, more particularly toward a light post where he sniffed the ground. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the resort’s access zone, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, but finally lost interest in the search, i.e lost the scent.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
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Online Robittybob1

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Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2017, 07:50:00 AM »
In this early news report Mark Warner thought she had walked out of the apartment. https://youtu.be/RazOGuQ_r8E?t=40
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Offline Innominate

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2017, 08:52:54 AM »
Quote
In this early news report Mark Warner thought she had walked out of the apartment. https://youtu.be/RazOGuQ_r8E?t=40

And then the media consultants arrived and a vast amount of noise created - the question is whether the signal was lost in the noise, or the noise was the signal.

If the Daily Mail photo is correct (all the caveats about dog accuracy apply and the fact that Madeleine was obviously around the apartment prior to the night in question) then it would appear to be a valid theory that Madeleine exited the apartment, via the front door, and was abducted where the trail ends.

Online Robittybob1

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Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2017, 09:01:21 AM »
And then the media consultants arrived and a vast amount of noise created - the question is whether the signal was lost in the noise, or the noise was the signal.

If the Daily Mail photo is correct (all the caveats about dog accuracy apply and the fact that Madeleine was obviously around the apartment prior to the night in question) then it would appear to be a valid theory that Madeleine exited the apartment, via the front door, and was abducted where the trail ends.
I don't agree with everything you say but at least you answered the OP question.
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Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2017, 03:55:15 PM »
And then the media consultants arrived and a vast amount of noise created - the question is whether the signal was lost in the noise, or the noise was the signal.

If the Daily Mail photo is correct (all the caveats about dog accuracy apply and the fact that Madeleine was obviously around the apartment prior to the night in question) then it would appear to be a valid theory that Madeleine exited the apartment, via the front door, and was abducted where the trail ends.
Hi querty2007 I like your post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8201.msg405528#msg405528

In answering the statement "Except that 'woke and wandered' was ruled out by the shelved enquiry."

You wrote:

"I think we might be drifting off-topic, but my response would be that I'm not wedded to the 'woke and wandered' theory, but as far as I know it was not ruled out. There was only a few lines of analysis with no reasons given as to why it was only a 'remote possibility'; I though the report was weak in this regard.

Jane Tanner seemed to believe it was a distinct possibility:

Reply    “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”

Implying if the door was not dead-locked then 'escape' was possible."

Querty that is a very vital piece of information.  It was possible to deadlock the doors if you left fro the front door and deadlocked it, so it should have been possible to deadlock it from the inside too.

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Offline Brietta

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2017, 04:57:46 PM »
Hi querty2007 I like your post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8201.msg405528#msg405528

In answering the statement "Except that 'woke and wandered' was ruled out by the shelved enquiry."

You wrote:

"I think we might be drifting off-topic, but my response would be that I'm not wedded to the 'woke and wandered' theory, but as far as I know it was not ruled out. There was only a few lines of analysis with no reasons given as to why it was only a 'remote possibility'; I though the report was weak in this regard.

Jane Tanner seemed to believe it was a distinct possibility:

Reply    “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”

Implying if the door was not dead-locked then 'escape' was possible."

Querty that is a very vital piece of information.  It was possible to deadlock the doors if you left fro the front door and deadlocked it, so it should have been possible to deadlock it from the inside too.

Even had the door to 5A been locked from inside it was able to be unlocked from outside using a key.

I do not believe that should be possible.


Quote
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.

After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.

We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm

Quote
I remember that the key to the apartment was a bit unusual. It was round and with cut segments. We noticed that the cleaning personnel knocked on the door once and would then enter in the apartment. In this sequence, we left the door always closed with the key in the lock. The next morning, the cleaning woman knocked on the door and entered normally independent of the door being locked with the key in the interior of the lock.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline G-Unit

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2017, 05:16:47 PM »
Even had the door to 5A been locked from inside it was able to be unlocked from outside using a key.

I do not believe that should be possible.


Quote
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.

After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.

We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm

Quote
I remember that the key to the apartment was a bit unusual. It was round and with cut segments. We noticed that the cleaning personnel knocked on the door once and would then enter in the apartment. In this sequence, we left the door always closed with the key in the lock. The next morning, the cleaning woman knocked on the door and entered normally independent of the door being locked with the key in the interior of the lock.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm

It must have been a double cylinder lock.
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Offline jassi

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2017, 05:34:11 PM »
If a lock has been doubl-locked from the inside, can it be opened from the outside ?
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Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2017, 07:16:23 PM »
If a lock has been doubl-locked from the inside, can it be opened from the outside ?

Moot point as Kate said she left the doors unlocked in case Maddie needed to  get out to go find them if she woke. The dogs didn't alert to the bedroom window, or the curtains...

quote If the Daily Mail photo is correct (all the caveats about dog accuracy apply and the fact that Madeleine was obviously around the apartment prior to the night in question) then it would appear to be a valid theory that Madeleine exited the apartment, via the front door, and was abducted where the trail ends. unquote.

Assuming she was alive, because if she was removed as a corpse, then abduction would not be appropriate.  removed from the vicinity would be  better read. But I agree that it is a very valid theory. However, it makes the parents look bad, and well, we can't be having any of that so no point in pursuing it really.
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Online Robittybob1

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Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2017, 10:31:11 PM »
If a lock has been double-locked from the inside, can it be opened from the outside ?
Yes but you must have a key to do that, you reverse the deadlock mechanism and then unlock the latch.
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Offline Brietta

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2017, 10:45:51 PM »
If a lock has been doubl-locked from the inside, can it be opened from the outside ?

I would have said no ... particularly with a key in the lock.  The evidence suggests otherwise as far as Apartment 5A seems to have been concerned.

Quote:
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.

We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm

Had I been a 'top detective' I would have wanted to know the ins and outs of that lock.

In the event ... we were given a television shot of Amaral ~ was it during his documentary? ~ demonstrating how the door lock on 5A couldn't be slipped using a credit card.
Surely he must have read the statements showing all that was required was a key?
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Online Eleanor

Re: If Madeleine walked out of the apartment which door did she exit?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2017, 10:51:11 PM »
I would have said no ... particularly with a key in the lock.  The evidence suggests otherwise as far as Apartment 5A seems to have been concerned.

Quote:
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.

We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm

Had I been a 'top detective' I would have wanted to know the ins and outs of that lock.

In the event ... we were given a television shot of Amaral ~ was it during his documentary? ~ demonstrating how the door lock on 5A couldn't be slipped using a credit card.
Surely he must have read the statements showing all that was required was a key?

No fun in that.  And wouldn't have done his book much good either.