CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles

[Brietta]

Jez turn deaf aswell as blind did he? He had a pram and was not aware of his surroundings on a road LOL. We have his statement of being adamant Jane was not seen. He spotted Jane in purple earlier hanging outside the apartments like Jenny Murat did.

Please don't take the words of my post out of context ... I do not do that to you.


You have had this conversation before though on quite an informative thread which I recommend you read through again.
Jenny Murat reported seeing a woman hanging around apartment 5a.

Pegasus posted:
@ Anna. thanks yes that is what I was working from until I realised that the original rog of Mr W, which was in english, is not in the published files. The most original document we have is the PJ portuguese translation, which is in the files. The english we read tertiary internet translation, not the original, so I provide for the first time an accurate translation in this post.

I went back to the most original document of this rog that we have, the portuguese translation, which says:

"...  julgo tê-la visto quando primeiro iniciei o meu passeio. Ela estava parada na rua em frente do apartamento de um dos elementos do grupo, quando eu passei para baixo a saída do meu apartamento. Não sei se era o seu proprio apartamento ou não. Recordo-me que usava um vestuário de cor purpura"
and my accurate translation is
"... I think I saw her when I first began my walk. She was standing in the street in front of the apartment of one of the group members, as I went down to the exit of my apartment. I do not know if it was her own apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing a purple colored clothing"

Therefore at the moment Mr W saw this woman, IMO he was just leaving his apartment, and looking out from the walkway on the 4th floor of block 4, and saw a woman wearing something purple, standing in the street Rua Dr Agosthina Da Silva, and level with block 5.

So when he sees this woman on the street, he is on the 4th floor, at a great distance, 30 metres at least, very probably more. IMO he saw the same woman that Mrs M saw, not JT.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6300.msg239376#msg239376

  ... and later ...
 
So now you are suggesting that JT was the woman standing on the SE corner of the T junction under the streetlight ? Wearing a white skirt? What on earth would she be doing there? It is illogical. Obviously the woman seen by Mrs M is not JT,  JiMAO.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6300.msg239381#msg239381

[Brietta]

Glad to agree with you.   
Amaral identified the spot that Jez had drawn on his map and also the spot that Jane very definitely identified in the video where she argued with Gerry.  Gerry was remembering incorrectly. 

Maybe he started to cross to speak to Jez when a vehicle appeared and they retired back to the western kerb and pavement and the only part that stuck in Gerrys mind was crossing and a kerb ?

X marks the spot precisely at the curve widening the pavement into the lane making it very easy to envisage Jane's description of the event.

[sadie]

X marks the spot precisely at the curve widening the pavement into the lane making it very easy to envisage Jane's description of the event.

From the dark strip in front of Gerrys foot to the kerb it measures 9 feet on GE. 

Gerry stood with one foot on the kerb and one in the road .... so about 8 feet available to "squeeze through" behind him.

Plenty of space available IMO.

[sadie]

I think behind the scenes someone has owned up.  They can now go beyond that sighting and now putting the emphasis on the Smith sighting.  IMO.

Interesting thought, Rob.

Why didn't I think of that?

[sadie]

Why does everyone believe Wilkins above the others?

I believe that Wilkins was involved with looking at/ fussing over his little boy, so looking down and Jane was out of his line of vision.  Also Jane was not someone that he knew at that time, as far as i am aware, so if a person vaguely registered, then the person would be soon forgotten.
There were also cars parked long that stretch according to Stephen Carpenter.  As he was standing in the rioad with his little one, I find it likely that he was in a protected position.  i.e.  between two vehicles.   This would limit his view

I believe where he draws the cross because it is a definite place that would be remembered rather than somewhere along, say, an "anoymous" brick wall.

His written description lines up with where they were likely to meet up if Gerry wasw coming down the steps via the gate as he saw him initially.

Also Jane very definitely verifies the exact position in some anger when Gerry gets it wrong on the video

.... and now Amaral verfies the exact position in his video.   Do watch that video critically.  You will also see the broad expance of pavement and the plentiful room that Jane had to pass behind Gerry who had one foot in the road according to reports.

Thank You Goncalo for getting that right.  Much appreciated, it verifies my argument

https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=953

Does this help Rob ?

[Robittybob1]

Amaral believes Jane took the path route back and avoided the men which means at the time crecheman said he passed she would have seen him crossing the car park entrance from the back of the apartments NOT the front.

That could explain how Jane saw crecheman and the other men (Gerry/Jez) didn't see her.

Was he walking down toward the supermarket to cross her field of view from the left to the right?  Therefore he wasn't heading towards Murat's house at all then?
Which direction was he walking? Name the road?  Rua Dr. Augustino or  Rua Dr. Gentil Martins or neither of these.

One of the points of Jane identifying Robert Murat was that the person seen may have been Robert Murat walking toward his residence.  That tends to define the location and direction doesn't it?  Is this another of Amaral multi  pronged theories one of which could be correct if he comes up with enough of them.

[Brietta]

Was he walking down toward the supermarket to cross her field of view from the left to the right?  Therefore he wasn't heading towards Murat's house at all then?
Which direction was he walking? Name the road?  Rua Dr. Augustino or  Rua Dr. Gentil Martins or neither of these.

One of the points of Jane identifying Robert Murat was that the person seen may have been Robert Murat walking toward his residence.  That tends to define the location and direction doesn't it?  Is this another of Amaral multi  pronged theories one of which could be correct if he comes up with enough of them.

I think if the man Jane saw with the child had been Murat she would have recognised him in the flesh or something about him would have alerted her.  From photographs I've seen of him at the time he was quite distinctive.  She was very observant.  She was quite clear that she did not recognise Murat.

I think Murat was just unfortunate to live in close proximity to the apartment and in the direction of travel.

[stephen25000]

I think if the man Jane saw with the child had been Murat she would have recognised him in the flesh or something about him would have alerted her.  From photographs I've seen of him at the time he was quite distinctive.  She was very observant.  She was quite clear that she did not recognise Murat.

I think Murat was just unfortunate to live in close proximity to the apartment and in the direction of travel.

Tanner had an image of a blank face.

Murat looks a lot like David Payne.

[Benice]

So do you find Gerry changing his talk with Jez to a totally different side of the street despite two other witnesses claiming otherwise disgraceful too ?

I did answer your post Faith - but it has been zapped.

I confirmed that I didn't find it disgraceful that Gerry's recollection was different to the other two witnesses - as memory is notoriously fallible and it's normal for different people to have different memories of the same event.

I also stated that Amaral -  who was NOT relying on memory - ignored the witness statements of the people who were there and instead decided to position Jez and Gerry - standing in the middle of the pavement in such a position that JT had to turn slightly to squeeze past them.  That was not a truthful depiction of the situation imo,

I then gave my opinion - based on existing evidence  - on why he would do that.

I have no idea why that post was removed.

[faithlilly]

I do not believe there is any evidence of any inaccuracy either in recollection or description as far as Jane Tanner's eye witness account is concerned.

If you know of any, please cite it.

Exton certainly thought Tanner was an unreliable witness. This was illustrated quite dramatically by the recording of Tanner giving evidence to the PIs in the channel 5 programme The McCanns and the Conman.

[faithlilly]

I did answer your post Faith - but it has been zapped.

I confirmed that I didn't find it disgraceful that Gerry's recollection was different to the other two witnesses - as memory is notoriously fallible and it's normal for different people to have different memories of the same event.

I also stated that Amaral -  who was NOT relying on memory - ignored the witness statements of the people who were there and instead decided to position Jez and Gerry - standing in the middle of the pavement in such a position that JT had to turn slightly to squeeze past them.  That was not a truthful depiction of the situation imo,

I then gave my opinion - based on existing evidence  - on why he would do that.

I have no idea why that post was removed.

So two seperate witnesses place Gerry on a completely different side of the road to Gerry's 'recollection' yet Loach's documentary places Gerry/Jez at the spot intimated by Gerry. Do you find that truthful?

[pathfinder73]

"Amaral believes" - yep, that about says it all. Just how many people had to be lying for his thesis to fit?
If not one checker went around to the front of the building during that evening, the shutter could have already been raised at 9.05pm, In addition to that, Jane had no reason to be stood in front of Block 5 when JW saw her at around 8.15pm - she would have exited via the rear patio door.

There are two routes back so both are a possibility.

[Robittybob1]

In the interview they mention about Gerry not using the front door.  Also they say the key to the front door was left on the kitchen counter or something like that.  Now what I want to raise is that I cannot  accept that Gerry did not take the key with him in the first instance.  I propose that there was some reason Gerry left his key behind after his 9:05 visit.  I'm not sure for what but that is the start.  You just don't leave your kids and the keys in the apartment.  No one would do this normally.
Someone could have locked the doors and there would be no way to get in or sure way for the kids to get out.

[Benice]

So two seperate witnesses place Gerry on a completely different side of the road to Gerry's 'recollection' yet Loach's documentary places Gerry/Jez at the spot intimated by Gerry. Do you find that truthful?

There no comparison IMO.  They had to choose one of the remembered places - and they chose Gerry's.

Amaral on the other hand -  ignored the evidence of all three witnesses and HE decided to place them where HE wanted them to be.   It cannot be ignored that his depiction was completely untrue -and imo it doesn't take rocket science to see why he would do that.       

 IMO Once Murat was off the hook and he turned his full attention onto the McCanns - JT's sighting became thoroughly inconvenient to his 'theory'.      In my opinion, after reading his book and from what he has said about JT in interviews - his aim was to discredit her as a witness because of that.

What other reason could there be.

AIMHO

[sadie]

Tanner had an image of a blank face.

Murat looks a lot like David Payne.

Murat looks nothing like David Payne.