Author Topic: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles  (Read 230891 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #930 on: September 13, 2017, 12:19:22 PM »
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.

As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me  -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open. 

Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.

When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger?   To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by -  a few feet away from him.

So I know it can happen.  It's all a matter of 'timing'.

If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT.    If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.

AIMHO
I noticed you had edited your post.  A good example and rightly so, but Jez does not concede to any reason why he would have missed seeing Jane.  Gerry gives a reason and does not deny the possibility that Jane passed by him unnoticed, but not so Jez (to the same extent).  I did see a small concession in the statement.

"He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one."  Allows for the situation you describe of distraction.   He is not saying it was so quiet you could have heard a pin drop.

In his first statement he doesn't mention Jane but just says "I don't remember anyone else walking around with a child."  Which means, since Jane did not have a child, she may or may not have passed by.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 12:26:52 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #931 on: September 13, 2017, 02:00:27 PM »
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.

As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me  -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open. 

Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.

When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger?   To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by -  a few feet away from him.

So I know it can happen.  It's all a matter of 'timing'.

If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT.    If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.

AIMHO

That comparison is nonsense. Gerry and Jez did not have their heads on a floor looking for keys. So where do you think both their heads were when Jane walked passed (not jogging)?
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #932 on: September 13, 2017, 03:13:14 PM »
And JW's words mean you don't have to paint a picture, it's all there in black and white.

And yet here we all are, arguing over what we think his words are saying, whereas the picture says it all. IMO

Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #933 on: September 13, 2017, 03:16:01 PM »
That comparison is nonsense. Gerry and Jez did not have their heads on a floor looking for keys. So where do you think both their heads were when Jane walked passed (not jogging)?

If Jane had been dressed like Kim Kardashian on a night out you can bet your last dollar both men would have noticed her passing by. They still wouldn't have noticed Tannerman, though.
IMO.

Offline faithlilly

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #934 on: September 13, 2017, 03:19:09 PM »
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.

As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me  -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open. 

Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.

When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger?   To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by -  a few feet away from him.

So I know it can happen.  It's all a matter of 'timing'.

If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT.    If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.

AIMHO

And Tanners drawing putting them nearer the gate ?

Jez's measurements would have been thoroughly thought out and a much truer depiction of where they were standing and further Jez had been attending his baby and that was the reason he didn't see her don't you think he would have mentioned the possibility in his statements? Jez would have to have been looking any other way but at Tanner ( and that's not taking in to account hearing the sound of her flip flops ) for the time it took her to walk out of the tapas entrance to when she disappeared around the corner of the road. It that really feasible?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #935 on: September 13, 2017, 03:20:53 PM »
And yet here we all are, arguing over what we think his words are saying, whereas the picture says it all. IMO


And Tanner puts the discussion much closer to the gate. Your thoughts ?

Measurements are finite. There is no room for argument.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #936 on: September 13, 2017, 04:24:14 PM »

And Tanner puts the discussion much closer to the gate. Your thoughts ?

Measurements are finite. There is no room for argument.

Jeremy Wilkins 7/5/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
"I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. I have also produced a map, from the holiday brochure also with an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday ' JW 2.' "

(Diagram already posted, JW2 appears infathomable)

Jane Tanner 10/5/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
"She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child."


The freshest recollections are usually the most accurate.

Offline Benice

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #937 on: September 13, 2017, 04:25:57 PM »
That comparison is nonsense. Gerry and Jez did not have their heads on a floor looking for keys. So where do you think both their heads were when Jane walked passed (not jogging)?

Well presumably Gerry didn't have eyes in the back of his head, and unless Jez had abnormally long arms he would have to bend down and also have to look down at his baby if he needed his attention.   To tuck him in?  To replace his dummy?  Who knows.

IMO
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline faithlilly

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #938 on: September 13, 2017, 04:32:36 PM »
Jeremy Wilkins 7/5/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
"I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. I have also produced a map, from the holiday brochure also with an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday ' JW 2.' "

(Diagram already posted, JW2 appears infathomable)

Jane Tanner 10/5/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
"She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child."


The freshest recollections are usually the most accurate.

Indeed Benice. From Tanner's 4th May statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg

And this is the map from the holiday brochure mentioned above by Wilkins http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_505.jpg.
Not quite as clear cut.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 04:38:20 PM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #939 on: September 13, 2017, 05:48:30 PM »
Indeed Benice. From Tanner's 4th May statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg

And this is the map from the holiday brochure mentioned above by Wilkins http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_505.jpg.
Not quite as clear cut.

Fastforward to 2013AD & the Met announce they are almost sure they have identified the man JT saw on the 3rd May 2007, thus validating her statement. What JW or GM missed seeing or disagreed on positioning is irrelevant.
Can you explain why Amaral steadfastly ignored that revelation during the making of O Enigma?

Offline G-Unit

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #940 on: September 13, 2017, 06:01:03 PM »
Fastforward to 2013AD & the Met announce they are almost sure they have identified the man JT saw on the 3rd May 2007, thus validating her statement. What JW or GM missed seeing or disagreed on positioning is irrelevant.
Can you explain why Amaral steadfastly ignored that revelation during the making of O Enigma?

He was discussing his investigation, not OG's.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Benice

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #941 on: September 13, 2017, 06:28:13 PM »
Indeed Benice. From Tanner's 4th May statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg

And this is the map from the holiday brochure mentioned above by Wilkins http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_505.jpg.
Not quite as clear cut.

I don't see the point of  going into the minutiae of statements when it is apparent that none of them have identical recollections of the same event. 

IMO either you believe Jane Tanner gave her genuine recollection of what happened on her way back to check her children -  and that  Amaral  set out to discredit her version because it didn't suit his agenda for people to believe her.    Or you believe Amarals contention that she was not a credible witness and believe his attempts to prove that she wasn't were valid.

AFAIAC Jane Tanner had no reason to lie whilst imo Amaral had every reason at the time to convince the public that she should not be believed..   Why he is still continuing to do that now that crecheman has proved JT was telling the truth is anyone's guess.

If you believe the opposite and that she did have reason to lie and that Amaral is right to try to convince the public that she was not a credible witness  - then I am more than happy to hear your reasons why.

AIMHO
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline pathfinder73

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #942 on: September 13, 2017, 06:40:15 PM »
Amaral didn't discredit her. Jane did it herself - she cannot remember passing Gerry/Jez but she can remember seeing the man crossing at the top. We've got first hand witness accounts being confused by her recollections. How she thought she brushed past two on a pavement without being seen nor heard is simply not believable.

At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child.
This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm

At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child, running, and that because of the pyjamas she was wearing it could have been Madeleine. It was in these circumstances that abduction began to be talked about. He made a report about this situation and sent it to the police.

This sighting did not seem to him to be very credible, because when he asked her about the physical characteristics of the individual, she said it was very dark, however she saw the pyjamas clearly. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #943 on: September 13, 2017, 07:28:39 PM »
And yet here we all are, arguing over what we think his words are saying, whereas the picture says it all. IMO
The picture is too sketchy IMO.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #944 on: September 13, 2017, 07:35:14 PM »
Jeremy Wilkins 7/5/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
"I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. I have also produced a map, from the holiday brochure also with an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday ' JW 2.' "

(Diagram already posted, JW2 appears infathomable)

Jane Tanner 10/5/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
"She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child."


The freshest recollections are usually the most accurate.

The words ""I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. "  Is the clue.  This is just the spot where he first "saw Gerry" not where they stood and spoke.
Both of the men saw each other in a different place than where they stood and spoke.  They are both walking and how do you close that distance.  If Gerry came out of the gate which direction was he heading?  Where was Jez when he first saw Gerry and how did he close that distance?

It would be impossible to come together if they were walking in the same direction.
If they were on opposite sides of the road they could meet in the middle.  But they are both moving so the final meeting spot is not where they first saw each other unless one stands still.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 07:45:35 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.