Author Topic: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles  (Read 230855 times)

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Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1260 on: September 19, 2017, 03:31:46 PM »
Policemen hypothesise then their hypotheses change according to the evidence which emerges. I see no reason why Amaral's theories shouldn't change, so why do you?

What evidence do you think he used to change Tannerman's direction of travel from Jane's witness statements, having used those same statements as evidence in his book/DVD?

Offline G-Unit

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1261 on: September 19, 2017, 04:20:00 PM »
What evidence do you think he used to change Tannerman's direction of travel from Jane's witness statements, having used those same statements as evidence in his book/DVD?

Perhaps he's been googling and thinking since 2008?

I think she saw Gerry and Jez at 21:15, but she saw the abductor with Madeleine at 21:45.......The abductor went directly from Jane sighting place to the Smiths sighting place, without waiting during a "25 minutes time gap"
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
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Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1262 on: September 19, 2017, 05:35:09 PM »
Perhaps he's been googling and thinking since 2008?

I think she saw Gerry and Jez at 21:15, but she saw the abductor with Madeleine at 21:45.......The abductor went directly from Jane sighting place to the Smiths sighting place, without waiting during a "25 minutes time gap"
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html

Yet you used the reverse answer in #104
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8237.msg423329#msg423329
 

Offline pathfinder73

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1263 on: September 19, 2017, 07:28:14 PM »
He is speculating as others have. Heriberto Janosch speculates that her sighting happened later than she said, for example. The first time her sighting is mentioned by Gerry the passageway is mentioned too, so Amaral has some basis for thinking that's where she was when she saw the man and child.

At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862

An important report by Vitor Martins on 4 May which seems to tie in with Silvia Batista's statement (Jane saw the man/child passing in front of Madeleine's bedroom window).  The main entrance is the car park side.

"At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange."

Date: 2007/05/04 : Service Information

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

From: Vitor Martins, Inspector
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline G-Unit

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1264 on: September 19, 2017, 08:20:58 PM »
Yet you used the reverse answer in #104
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8237.msg423329#msg423329

It looks like we were both wrong, doesn't it? He isn't ignoring new developments.
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Offline John

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1265 on: September 20, 2017, 12:12:58 AM »
In chapter 7 of his book (the one starting with the shitzu demise) he expresses exactly what is his interpretation of what Jane saw.  It is utter balderdash which has nonetheless passed into the lexicon of misinformation he generated about the case.
That is not opinion ... that is fact.

Much of which is reinforced in O Enigma.


I take it that the extract below is the bit you refer to as balderdash Brie?

Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 7 - Truth of the lie.

JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT
Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the
individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked
car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is
parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat,
anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as
the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw
that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the
description she painted previously?



Has Jane Tanner ever denied this version of events?
Is there any reason why this version of events is false?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 12:19:41 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1266 on: September 20, 2017, 12:33:26 AM »
Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 8 - Truth of the lie

At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be
circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow
the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the
man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the
Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that
the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is
sure of it because he knows him.


Had Murat not become a suspect does anyone think the Smiths would even have bothered to come forward?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 12:48:32 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline misty

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1267 on: September 20, 2017, 12:53:59 AM »
Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 8 - Truth of the lie

At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be
circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow
the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the
man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the
Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that
the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is
sure of it because he knows him.


Had Murat not become a suspect does anyone think the Smiths would even have bothered to come forward?

I definitely don't think they would have. The question is - why did MS equate the man he allegedly saw with Murat?

Offline sadie

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1268 on: September 20, 2017, 01:33:00 AM »
I definitely don't think they would have. The question is - why did MS equate the man he allegedly saw with Murat?

Good question misty.   8((()*/

Offline Robittybob1

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1269 on: September 20, 2017, 03:16:52 AM »
I definitely don't think they would have. The question is - why did MS equate the man he allegedly saw with Murat?
Murat had been made an arguido by that stage.   There are all manner of motivations.
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1270 on: September 20, 2017, 08:05:11 AM »
I definitely don't think they would have. The question is - why did MS equate the man he allegedly saw with Murat?

I don't think you mean that the way it sounds?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline G-Unit

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1271 on: September 20, 2017, 09:47:25 AM »

I take it that the extract below is the bit you refer to as balderdash Brie?

Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 7 - Truth of the lie.

JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT
Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the
individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked
car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is
parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat,
anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as
the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw
that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the
description she painted previously?



Has Jane Tanner ever denied this version of events?
Is there any reason why this version of events is false?

I don't know about false, but it's certainly peculiar. It begins with Bob Small ringing Jane, who he'd never met before;

‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’

Jane panics; is it the press, is it the abductor? So she does tell Russell in case someone wants to kidnap her. I think it's strange for a senior policeman to ring someone without properly identifying and explaining himself and getting his story wrong. Why didn't Jane ask him what he was talking about, Spanish police? I would have.

Despite her fears and suspicions, however, Jane agrees to meet this stranger in a car park. Where that is she doesn't say, but her route takes her past Murat's house. I can't see any car parks jumping out at me near there, but that's what she says. Murat speaks to them but she isn't interested because she's 'worried sick' about being abducted. I have to say that in her shoes I wouldn't have gone anywhere near this potential abductor without further checks on his identity.

She meets Bob Small (with Russell for protection) and Russell writes down the number plate of the car they drive off in. So this stranger drives away with your partner but it's OK because you've got the registration of his car. How long was Russell going to wait before reporting her kidnapped I wonder? One hour, two hours, all night? Would a kidnapper still be in that car? Would his victim?

Jane is driven to where the 'rest of the team' are with a van which is pretending to be refrigerated. Not an unmarked car, which is what Amaral thinks she's in, so he wasn't there.  Who the rest of the team were no-one says. Spanish, Portuguese, British? We don't know.

Jane never denies identifying Murat. She splutters and waffles but she never categorically denies it. Interestingly, the interviewer doesn't ask the question either. At the end the question is;

4078  “You don’t feel it was the same person?”
Reply    “No, I don’t, no”.

Later in her interview though;

I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078    “No”.
 Reply   “But I just thought it was”.

 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm


 



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Offline Benice

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1272 on: September 20, 2017, 10:40:49 AM »
I don't know about false, but it's certainly peculiar. It begins with Bob Small ringing Jane, who he'd never met before;

‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’

Jane panics; is it the press, is it the abductor? So she does tell Russell in case someone wants to kidnap her. I think it's strange for a senior policeman to ring someone without properly identifying and explaining himself and getting his story wrong. Why didn't Jane ask him what he was talking about, Spanish police? I would have.

Despite her fears and suspicions, however, Jane agrees to meet this stranger in a car park. Where that is she doesn't say, but her route takes her past Murat's house. I can't see any car parks jumping out at me near there, but that's what she says. Murat speaks to them but she isn't interested because she's 'worried sick' about being abducted. I have to say that in her shoes I wouldn't have gone anywhere near this potential abductor without further checks on his identity.

She meets Bob Small (with Russell for protection) and Russell writes down the number plate of the car they drive off in. So this stranger drives away with your partner but it's OK because you've got the registration of his car. How long was Russell going to wait before reporting her kidnapped I wonder? One hour, two hours, all night? Would a kidnapper still be in that car? Would his victim?

Jane is driven to where the 'rest of the team' are with a van which is pretending to be refrigerated. Not an unmarked car, which is what Amaral thinks she's in, so he wasn't there.  Who the rest of the team were no-one says. Spanish, Portuguese, British? We don't know.

Jane never denies identifying Murat. She splutters and waffles but she never categorically denies it. Interestingly, the interviewer doesn't ask the question either. At the end the question is;

4078  “You don’t feel it was the same person?”
Reply    “No, I don’t, no”.

Later in her interview though;

I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078    “No”.
 Reply   “But I just thought it was”.

 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Groundhog day?   We've done all this before.

IMO the wording in bold is an unfinished sentence and should have ended with a series of full stops............ and not just one full stop.

There are other examples of the typist failing to do this in JT's statement.

Having just stated that she didn't think it was RM that she saw - JT would hardly then contradict herself immediately after.    That makes no sense.    And if the interviewing officer thought she had just contradicted herself - surely she would have asked Jane for clarification at that point.

IMO Jane is referring to the decision to contact Bob Small and not to RM.

From Kate's book re the IP
Quote
It was perhaps telling that Jane had not been required to sign anything, since the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary allowed claims to be made later that she had identified Murat as the man she'd seen on 3rd May.  This was completely untrue, Jane would've loved to have been able to make a definite identification, because it might have helped the investigation, but the fact is she couldn't.  The set-up was so inadequate that she was unable even to recognise Murat as the man she had met half and hour earlier, let alone say with any certainty that he was the one she had see ten days before.
End quote








The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1273 on: September 20, 2017, 11:20:15 AM »
Groundhog day?   We've done all this before.

IMO the wording in bold is an unfinished sentence and should have ended with a series of full stops............ and not just one full stop.

There are other examples of the typist failing to do this in JT's statement.

Having just stated that she didn't think it was RM that she saw - JT would hardly then contradict herself immediately after.    That makes no sense.    And if the interviewing officer thought she had just contradicted herself - surely she would have asked Jane for clarification at that point.

IMO Jane is referring to the decision to contact Bob Small and not to RM.

From Kate's book re the IP
Quote
It was perhaps telling that Jane had not been required to sign anything, since the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary allowed claims to be made later that she had identified Murat as the man she'd seen on 3rd May.  This was completely untrue, Jane would've loved to have been able to make a definite identification, because it might have helped the investigation, but the fact is she couldn't.  The set-up was so inadequate that she was unable even to recognise Murat as the man she had met half and hour earlier, let alone say with any certainty that he was the one she had see ten days before.
End quote

You do realize, of course, there is no onus to believe everything 'written' in Kate Mccann's book.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 11:30:02 AM by stephen25000 »

Offline jassi

Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
« Reply #1274 on: September 20, 2017, 11:26:30 AM »
You do realize, of course, there is no obus to believe everything 'written' in Kate Mccann's book.

More a case of 'loosely based on a true story'  - IMO   8(0(*
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future