The burn hole in Sheila's nightie and the graze across her abdomen.

[david1819]

Neither am I but it's interesting the graze to the abdomen and nightdress appear to have fallen under the radar.  Might be completely unrelated might not be.       

Now imagine if witnesses observed JB with a graze to his abdomen covered by a dressing and some item of clothing had been found (maybe his fave cream jumper) with burn marks and black particles attached!  Blimey we would never hear the end of it!

Oh yeah. Good point!

[Holly Goodhead]

Oh yeah. Good point!

David you have posted about the bullets being lead-free.  What do you think about the  rhodizonate test on the black particles showing neg indicating lead-free?  Could this be another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' moment?! 

[Holly Goodhead]

Only DRH/2 finished up above her head, didn't it?  And as I said, DRH/1 might have been swept off her body by the perp before the rifle was staged.

Well around her upper body.  Certainly nowhere near the burn marks.  I guess we will never know for sure since the nightdress was destroyed! 

It does seem strange that the defence didn't explore both the abdomen wound and the nightdress.

[david1819]

David you have posted about the bullets being lead-free.  What do you think about the  rhodizonate test on the black particles showing neg indicating lead-free?  Could this be another 'forensic evidence breakthrough' moment?! 

It seems a breakthrough moment in this respect was made back in 2001 but the Judges would not allow it into evidence at the appeal. See the 1st attachment. The experiment carried out confirms the forensic stuff I posted a while ago.

[Holly Goodhead]

It seems a breakthrough moment in this respect was made back in 2001 but the Judges would not allow it into evidence at the appeal. See the 1st attachment. The experiment carried out confirms the forensic stuff I posted a while ago.

Thanks.  So there are many plausible reasons for lack of GSR detected on SC's person and not the one reason put forward by the prosecution ie that SC wasn't responsible.

So the black particles found on SC's nightdress may well have been GSR but tested negative using the Rhodizonate test as the .22 bullets used at WHF were lead-free. 

Sounds compelling to me.  Some will argue the black particles deposited on SC's nightdress as a victim rather than the perp.  Regardless it still supports the idea the .22 bullets were lead-free hence tests for GSR and lead were coming up neg.

[Caroline]

Thanks.  So there are many plausible reasons for lack of GSR detected on SC's person and not the one reason put forward by the prosecution ie that SC wasn't responsible.

So the black particles found on SC's nightdress may well have been GSR but tested negative using the Rhodizonate test as the .22 bullets used at WHF were lead-free. 

Sounds compelling to me.  Some will argue the black particles deposited on SC's nightdress as a victim rather than the perp.  Regardless it still supports the idea the .22 bullets were lead-free hence tests for GSR and lead were coming up neg.

Why does it suggest they were lead free? These things are easily checked Holly - no need to make assumptions. I think the holes were old and have nothing to do with the murders.

[Holly Goodhead]

Why does it suggest they were lead free? These things are easily checked Holly - no need to make assumptions. I think the holes were old and have nothing to do with the murders.

Yes I agree these things are easily checked however it doesn't appear in this case it happened.  Only a complete breakdown of the constituent parts from the manufacturer (Eley) can determine whether the primer and propellant contained lead or not.  No doubt Eley's records will be able to conclude this one way or another.

What makes you think the holes were old? 



 

[Caroline]

Yes I agree these things are easily checked however it doesn't appear in this case it happened.  Only a complete breakdown of the constituent parts from the manufacturer (Eley) can determine whether the primer and propellant contained lead or not.  No doubt Eley's records will be able to conclude this one way or another.

What makes you think the holes were old?

Because she smoked cannabis.Some of my friends used to smoke cannabis and now and again, bits of the resin used to fall out of the joint and onto their clothes - making little holes which were scorched around the edges.

[Holly Goodhead]

Because she smoked cannabis.Some of my friends used to smoke cannabis and now and again, bits of the resin used to fall out of the joint and onto their clothes - making little holes which were scorched around the edges.

There seems to be a range of opinions about the holes:

Caroline - joint
David - ejection port
Me - bullet ricochet
Myster - casing

According to MF black particles were also found.  Surely a forensic scientist would know a cig/joint burn?  He also says it wasn't full penetration.  Not sure if that's for one hole or both!

[John]

  Afaik no one has put forward any explanation for the holes in SC's nightie and the black particles surrounding them said to have been caused by a hot object and/or the graze wound to SC's abdomen noted by the pathologist.  Is it possible the damage to the nightdress and graze wound were caused by the ricochet from an exited bullet?

An interesting subject Holly.

Thinking outside the box for a moment, how about if the hole, burns and the graze across her abdomen were made by a hot poker held threateningly against her in order to get her to comply?  The same hot poker which might have been jabbed into Nevill.

[Myster]

There seems to be a range of opinions about the holes:

Caroline - joint
David - ejection port
Me - bullet ricochet
Myster - casing

According to MF black particles were also found.  Surely a forensic scientist would know a cig/joint burn?  He also says it wasn't full penetration.  Not sure if that's for one hole or both!

Casing and/or remnants of burning primer/propellant. The primer which ignites the propellant is commonly Lead Styphnate, which unsurprisingly, does contain lead! Eley invented a special method of introducing this primer into the brass casing without the usual high-speed spinning process, which you can read about in the first article below. It focuses on Tenex, but probably applies across the whole range of Eley .22 cartridges. Lead Styphnate might eventually be replaced by less toxic compounds if they haven't already done so in Eley ammunition.

https://www.nioa.com.au/uploads/prontoAPI/attachments/Eley_Review_-_Sporting_Shooter_Magazine.pdf

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dHbHS5GhCN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=lead+styphnate+eley&source=bl&ots=x2Rvlv_gS2&sig=4xkSNPUUVyfakcTp7xMsaeUw1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4r_aOg6zUAhVsI8AKHegzC1EQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lead%20styphnate%20eley&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate

[Holly Goodhead]

Casing and/or remnants of burning primer/propellant. The primer which ignites the propellant is commonly Lead Styphnate, which unsurprisingly, does contain lead! Eley invented a special method of introducing this primer into the brass casing without the usual high-speed spinning process, which you can read about in the first article below. It focuses on Tenex, but probably applies across the whole range of Eley .22 cartridges. Lead Styphnate might eventually be replaced by less toxic compounds if they haven't already done so in Eley ammunition.

https://www.nioa.com.au/uploads/prontoAPI/attachments/Eley_Review_-_Sporting_Shooter_Magazine.pdf

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dHbHS5GhCN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=lead+styphnate+eley&source=bl&ots=x2Rvlv_gS2&sig=4xkSNPUUVyfakcTp7xMsaeUw1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4r_aOg6zUAhVsI8AKHegzC1EQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=lead%20styphnate%20eley&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate

Yes I've posted about the above previously:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6965.msg310327#msg310327

Impossible to conclude anything without access to information from Eley about the materials and processes used in the manufacturing of the bullets used at WHF. 

[Holly Goodhead]

An interesting subject Holly.

Thinking outside the box for a moment, how about if the hole, burns and the graze across her abdomen were made by a hot poker held threateningly against her in order to get her to comply?  The same hot poker which might have been jabbed into Nevill.

But would a hot poker account for the black particles found around the holes on SC's nightdress?  Afaik NB's pyjamas/wounds didn't present with any black particles?  Also the graze to SC's abdomen had a dressing on.

Prof Knight disagreed with Dr Vanezis over the marks to NB's neck/back.  He was unable to say what the marks were but didn't think they were burns. 

Too many loose ends for my liking.