Bamber's former lawyer Ewen Smith and the Silencer/DNA evidence.

[John]

Call me naive or stupid but up until I read Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes I thought that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%.  I had not realised that it was simply her type which is shared by others including that of her Uncle, Mr Boutflour, who I believe had a hand in finding the silencer  . According to Wilkes, Jeremy's QC decided not to present this information to the jury  >@@(*&).

In the above link Mr Ewan Smith seems to imply that the blood found in the silencer is that of Sheila Caffell's or a mixture of Mr and Mrs Bamber's 8-)(--)  He makes no reference to the possibility of contamination/Mr Boutflour  8-)(--)

Here is a link to the 'Crimes That Shook Britian - Jeremy Bamber'.  At about 18.30 in DI Mr Bob Miller seems to also imply that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%  8-)(--)

To put the blood, the silencer/sound moderator and the DNA into perspective Holly, the follow is what is known and true.

In 1986 it was proven that,

• Blood was found both inside and outside of the silencer.
• This blood was human blood, it did not come from animals.
• The blood was of the same group as that of Sheila Caffell.

In addition, in 2002 it was discovered that,

• DNA from material with a 17 marker match to Sheila Caffell was found on baffles deep with the silencer.
• It could not be ascertained what this material came from but it was assumed to be blood given the earlier discovery.

[Holly Goodhead]

Call me naive or stupid but up until I read Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes I thought that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%.  I had not realised that it was simply her type which is shared by others including that of her Uncle, Mr Boutflour, who I believe had a hand in finding the silencer  . According to Wilkes, Jeremy's QC decided not to present this information to the jury  >@@(*&).

In the above link Mr Ewan Smith seems to imply that the blood found in the silencer is that of Sheila Caffell's or a mixture of Mr and Mrs Bamber's 8-)(--)  He makes no reference to the possibility of contamination/Mr Boutflour  8-)(--)

Here is a link to the 'Crimes That Shook Britian - Jeremy Bamber'.  At about 18.30 in DI Mr Bob Miller seems to also imply that the blood found in the silencer was that of Sheila's 100%  8-)(--)

To put the blood, the silencer/sound moderator and the DNA into perspective Holly, the follow is what is known and true.

In 1986 it was proven that,

• Blood was found both inside and outside of the silencer.
• This blood was human blood, it did not come from animals.
• The blood was of the same group as that of Sheila Caffell.

In addition, in 2002 it was discovered that,

• DNA from material with a 17 marker match to Sheila Caffell was found on baffles deep with the silencer.
• It could not be ascertained what this material came from but it was assumed to be blood given the earlier discovery.

Thank you for the above John.

I have read the R v Jeremy Nevill Bamber 2002 appeal hearing and I believe it states that the main source of DNA was from Mrs Bamber  8-)(--)

I understand that as the DNA testing was based on LCN it is super sensitive and the potential for contamination is significant especially when the silencer was handled etc at a time when such a test was not even envisaged.  I personally do not think anything of any consequence can be gained from the LCN DNA testing/results hence the appeal court judges rightly threw it out.

[Holly Goodhead]

That is the classic misinformation put about by the other site.  They cannot make up their minds whether to discredit the forensic evidence by saying it was poor match to Sheila or if it was a perfect match due to deliberate contamination by the relatives.  They also have an obsession with Sheila's clothes.

They also like to claim that Sheila did it after she was shot for the first time, ran around the house, evaded the police and barked like a dog, with a bullet wound to the throat only to be shot a second time by the police and then Jeremy was framed in  a massive cover up by Special Branch.  Only one brave policeman saw through all this and correctly identified Sheila as the killer but he was silenced by a Masonic conspiracy.

Like I say it is Fantasy Island over there.

The Bamber case is boring and obvious and there are much better cases to review.

Outlook how could you do this to me...I've spent hours reading up on the Bamber case, purchased all the books etc and now you tell me it is boring and obvious    Well I have to say it's not boring and obvious to me...yet 

If what you say is true, and I'm sure it is, regarding posters stating that Sheila barked like a dog etc then those that post such rubbish should feel a sense of shame.  Regardless of whether Sheila was responsible due to suffering from a dreadful mental illness or her brother was responsible she was undoubtedly a victim.

No such thing exists as a "poor match" or "perfect match".  At the end of the day Sheila's blood type matched that found in the silencer and her Uncle's, Robert Boutfour.  This blood type can be found amongst many members of the population.  Why was the jury not made aware of the potential for contamination from potentially multiple sources?  Of course the thought has crossed my mind did the relatives plant the so-called blood evidence in an attempt to frame Jeremy and secure his inheritance which was rightfully his if he is innocent?

[Andrea]

Deliberate contamination by RB would suggest that he had to know he and Sheila were the same blood group, would it not? I doubt RB knew he and Sheila shared the same Blood group.

[Holly Goodhead]

Deliberate contamination by RB would suggest that he had to know he and Sheila were the same blood group, would it not? I doubt RB knew he and Sheila shared the same Blood group.

Andrea that's exactly what I thought initially.  Then I thought about discussions I've had with family members, just general chit chat, about which blood group we belong to A, B, O.  It is often something discussed a bit like horoscopes.  But then the test results yielded 4 readings all of which were shared by Mr Boutflour and Sheila but I certainly would not have been aware of the potential for these other readings.  Is it entirely innocent/coincidence or something sinister?  No idea.  Certainly think the jury should have been given the opportunity to consider this.   

[Outlook]

That is the classic misinformation put about by the other site.  They cannot make up their minds whether to discredit the forensic evidence by saying it was poor match to Sheila or if it was a perfect match due to deliberate contamination by the relatives.  They also have an obsession with Sheila's clothes.

They also like to claim that Sheila did it after she was shot for the first time, ran around the house, evaded the police and barked like a dog, with a bullet wound to the throat only to be shot a second time by the police and then Jeremy was framed in  a massive cover up by Special Branch.  Only one brave policeman saw through all this and correctly identified Sheila as the killer but he was silenced by a Masonic conspiracy.

Like I say it is Fantasy Island over there.

The Bamber case is boring and obvious and there are much better cases to review.

Outlook how could you do this to me...I've spent hours reading up on the Bamber case, purchased all the books etc and now you tell me it is boring and obvious    Well I have to say it's not boring and obvious to me...yet 

If what you say is true, and I'm sure it is, regarding posters stating that Sheila barked like a dog etc then those that post such rubbish should feel a sense of shame.  Regardless of whether Sheila was responsible due to suffering from a dreadful mental illness or her brother was responsible she was undoubtedly a victim.

No such thing exists as a "poor match" or "perfect match".  At the end of the day Sheila's blood type matched that found in the silencer and her Uncle's, Robert Boutfour.  This blood type can be found amongst many members of the population.  Why was the jury not made aware of the potential for contamination from potentially multiple sources?  Of course the thought has crossed my mind did the relatives plant the so-called blood evidence in an attempt to frame Jeremy and secure his inheritance which was rightfully his if he is innocent?

I am afraid that is very much the case.  Most books are inaccurate or hideously biased and the lies and speculation spread from the "Blue Forum" to confuse everyone, but that is their purpose.  They strongly believe that endlessly repeating a lie makes it true.

The main thought must be:  "Is it really likely that relatives would embark on an elaborate "fit-up" after murdering an entire family using information they could not possibly know and probably exceeded the knowledge of forensic science at the time and they were so good at it that the evidence survives several critical appeals and reviews for almost 30 years and for what?"  The Bambers did not even own White House Farm.  It was leased.

It is nice to believe in conspiracies and all powerful government organizations that kill and fit people up for no apparent reason but Bamber is not worth the time or effort.

[Holly Goodhead]

That is the classic misinformation put about by the other site.  They cannot make up their minds whether to discredit the forensic evidence by saying it was poor match to Sheila or if it was a perfect match due to deliberate contamination by the relatives.  They also have an obsession with Sheila's clothes.

They also like to claim that Sheila did it after she was shot for the first time, ran around the house, evaded the police and barked like a dog, with a bullet wound to the throat only to be shot a second time by the police and then Jeremy was framed in  a massive cover up by Special Branch.  Only one brave policeman saw through all this and correctly identified Sheila as the killer but he was silenced by a Masonic conspiracy.

Like I say it is Fantasy Island over there.

The Bamber case is boring and obvious and there are much better cases to review.

Outlook how could you do this to me...I've spent hours reading up on the Bamber case, purchased all the books etc and now you tell me it is boring and obvious    Well I have to say it's not boring and obvious to me...yet 

If what you say is true, and I'm sure it is, regarding posters stating that Sheila barked like a dog etc then those that post such rubbish should feel a sense of shame.  Regardless of whether Sheila was responsible due to suffering from a dreadful mental illness or her brother was responsible she was undoubtedly a victim.

No such thing exists as a "poor match" or "perfect match".  At the end of the day Sheila's blood type matched that found in the silencer and her Uncle's, Robert Boutfour.  This blood type can be found amongst many members of the population.  Why was the jury not made aware of the potential for contamination from potentially multiple sources?  Of course the thought has crossed my mind did the relatives plant the so-called blood evidence in an attempt to frame Jeremy and secure his inheritance which was rightfully his if he is innocent?

I am afraid that is very much the case.  Most books are inaccurate or hideously biased and the lies and speculation spread from the "Blue Forum" to confuse everyone, but that is their purpose.  They strongly believe that endlessly repeating a lie makes it true.

The main thought must be:  "Is it really likely that relatives would embark on an elaborate "fit-up" after murdering an entire family using information they could not possibly know and probably exceeded the knowledge of forensic science at the time and they were so good at it that the evidence survives several critical appeals and reviews for almost 30 years and for what?"  The Bambers did not even own White House Farm.  It was leased.

It is nice to believe in conspiracies and all powerful government organizations that kill and fit people up for no apparent reason but Bamber is not worth the time or effort.

I found Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes very objective.  In fact I believe Jeremy's relatives co-operated/were interviewed by Roger Wilkes  8-)(--)

I have no idea whether Jeremy's family tampered with the silencer/evidence or indeed whether some other form of innocent or deliberate contamination took place.  It is certainly possible.  The forensic science available at the time, including procedures used etc for gathering evidence, was by today's standards rudimentary.

The combined estate of Mr and Mrs Bamber was valued at 436k gross.

Yes the evidence has survived several appeals but this may be due to 'herd mentality' and/or flawed group thinking.
In 2008 the entire global financial system almost collapsed.  The current Chairman of the Financial Services Authority, Lord Turner, describes it as "50-year-long, large intellectual and policy mistake".  Do I believe a handful of judges, qc's and a quango can call it wrong?...you bet I do 

[John]

For me the question of the significance of the silencer is of low priority and indeed consequence.  We know from the positioning of the bullet casings who was shot where and we can almost determine the sequence of those shootings.  It is clear from the unassailable evidence that Nevill and June were surprised in their bedroom.  June was shot where she lay while Nevill was shot at or near the door to the bedroom.

The intruder did not break in by force, he let himself in through a window which he had done many times before.

We know that Nevill Bamber never made any telephone call to police that morning irrespective of the speculation by Bamber and his cronies.  Not a single police officer or operator received such a call.  The only telephone call was made by Jeremy Bamber and even then he didn't think fit to dial 999.

Why did Jeremy Bamber lie?   Only one reason...to cover his own tracks.

[Holly Goodhead]

For me the question of the significance of the silencer is of low priority and indeed consequence.  We know from the positioning of the bullet casings who was shot where and we can almost determine the sequence of those shootings.  It is clear from the unassailable evidence that Nevill and June were surprised in their bedroom.  June was shot where she lay while Nevill was shot at or near the door to the bedroom.

The intruder did not break in by force, he let himself in through a window which he had done many times before.

We know that Nevill Bamber never made any telephone call to police that morning irrespective of the speculation by Bamber and his cronies.  Not a single police officer or operator received such a call.  The only telephone call was made by Jeremy Bamber and even then he didn't think fit to dial 999.

Why did Jeremy Bamber lie?   Only one reason...to cover his own tracks.

You may well be right John but the point is there is no evidence to support most of the above.  I find there are too many assumptions made about the case especially with regard to the sequence of events and timings.  In the absence of satellite technology and digital recordings we are left with...er not a lot really  8-)(--)

You are obviously far more familiar with the case than I am and I respect your views and belief that Jeremy is guilty as charged.  At this moment in time I am open minded.

[Andrea]

Roger Wilkes also interviewed and consulted with Bamber while writing Blood Relations, not just the wider family.

[John]

For me the question of the significance of the silencer is of low priority and indeed consequence.  We know from the positioning of the bullet casings who was shot where and we can almost determine the sequence of those shootings.  It is clear from the unassailable evidence that Nevill and June were surprised in their bedroom.  June was shot where she lay while Nevill was shot at or near the door to the bedroom.

The intruder did not break in by force, he let himself in through a window which he had done many times before.

We know that Nevill Bamber never made any telephone call to police that morning irrespective of the speculation by Bamber and his cronies.  Not a single police officer or operator received such a call.  The only telephone call was made by Jeremy Bamber and even then he didn't think fit to dial 999.

Why did Jeremy Bamber lie?   Only one reason...to cover his own tracks.

You may well be right John but the point is there is no evidence to support most of the above.  I find there are too many assumptions made about the case especially with regard to the sequence of events and timings.  In the absence of satellite technology and digital recordings we are left with...er not a lot really  8-)(--)

You are obviously far more familiar with the case than I am and I respect your views and belief that Jeremy is guilty as charged.  At this moment in time I am open minded.

You can't just dismiss the known evidence Holly.  I agree that too many assumptions can be made but at the end of the day blood matching Sheila was found in the silencer in 1985 and DNA which certainly belonged to her was found when the most inaccessible baffles were tested in 2002.  Where this DNA originated and how Sheila's blood got into the silencer are two questions which will never be answered.

For this very reason I prefer to look at other evidence to find Jeremy Bamber guilty.

[Andrea]

Holly, do you think the blood in the silencer was Sheila's? If not, who do you think it belongs to? Not forgetting that Sheila wasnt actually Blood related to her adopted family.

[Holly Goodhead]

For me the question of the significance of the silencer is of low priority and indeed consequence.  We know from the positioning of the bullet casings who was shot where and we can almost determine the sequence of those shootings.  It is clear from the unassailable evidence that Nevill and June were surprised in their bedroom.  June was shot where she lay while Nevill was shot at or near the door to the bedroom.

The intruder did not break in by force, he let himself in through a window which he had done many times before.

We know that Nevill Bamber never made any telephone call to police that morning irrespective of the speculation by Bamber and his cronies.  Not a single police officer or operator received such a call.  The only telephone call was made by Jeremy Bamber and even then he didn't think fit to dial 999.

Why did Jeremy Bamber lie?   Only one reason...to cover his own tracks.

You may well be right John but the point is there is no evidence to support most of the above.  I find there are too many assumptions made about the case especially with regard to the sequence of events and timings.  In the absence of satellite technology and digital recordings we are left with...er not a lot really  8-)(--)

You are obviously far more familiar with the case than I am and I respect your views and belief that Jeremy is guilty as charged.  At this moment in time I am open minded.

You can't just dismiss the known evidence Holly.  I agree that too many assumptions can be made but at the end of the day blood matching Sheila was found in the silencer in 1985 and DNA which certainly belonged to her was found when the most inaccessible baffles were tested in 2002.  Where this DNA originated and how Sheila's blood got into the silencer are two questions which will never be answered.

For this very reason I prefer to look at other evidence to find Jeremy Bamber guilty.

It is not necessary for me to dismiss known evidence John as I simply do not believe any exists to dismiss and I don't say this facetiously.

Here is an excerpt from the 2002 Appeal Hearing as you will see it categorically states that it could not be proved one way or the other whether Sheila's DNA was in the silencer.  June Bamber's DNA was found and an unidentified male.

497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:

i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;

ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and

iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.

I've already set out my stall re the so-called blood evidence.  Yes Sheila's blood type matched that found in the silencer and the sample provided by Robert Boutflour.  This does not prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was Sheila's.  Many members of the population share Sheila and Robert's blood type and there's no record of where the silencer had been/who handled it.  This should have been made clear to the jury.  Instead they were misled into thinking that the blood in the silencer was a "perfect match" to Sheila's.  In other words that it was exclusive to Sheila.

All the rest about phone logs/calls/bikes/wetsuits/he said this/she said that/blah, blah it is not measurable/scientific.  It is all subjective.

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, do you think the blood in the silencer was Sheila's? If not, who do you think it belongs to? Not forgetting that Sheila wasnt actually Blood related to her adopted family.

Andrea I honestly do not know as there is simply no conclusive evidence either way.  Please see my previous post.

I appreciate that Sheila was not a blood relation and this is the biggest obstacle for me to overcome in believing Jeremy to be guilty.  I understand that 1 in 6 suffers mental illness.  Although some figures seem to suggest it is as high as 1 in 4.  Either way this equates to 16.66% or 25.00% of the population.  So for me to believe Jeremy to be guilty I have to accept that 4 individuals thrown together pretty much at random by that I mean via marriage and adoption exceed the statistical average by up to 58.34% (June and Sheila mental illness, Jeremy personality disordered) It is this statistical anomaly that I have difficulty with.

Peter Vanezis stated that if Jeremy is responsible he would have to have been mad.  Peter Vanezis is not a psychologist/psychiatrist so probably not really qualified to make such a statement.  But I am sure most would agree that if Jeremy is responsible he surely cannot be defined as 'normal'.  I understand Jeremy has been tested numerous times and shows no signs of psychopathy.  But if we assume Jeremy is responsible this must mean 75% of the family were suffering from mental illness/personality disorder.  Whereas the statistical norm is 16.66% to 25.00%.

Imagine walking along any street anywhere in the world and taking four people at random, who are not genetically related, and finding that three of the four suffered from mental illness/personality disorder.    >@@(*&)

[John]

It is not necessary for me to dismiss known evidence John as I simply do not believe any exists to dismiss and I don't say this facetiously.

Here is an excerpt from the 2002 Appeal Hearing as you will see it categorically states that it could not be proved one way or the other whether Sheila's DNA was in the silencer.  June Bamber's DNA was found and an unidentified male.

497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:

i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;

ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and

iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.

I've already set out my stall re the so-called blood evidence.  Yes Sheila's blood type matched that found in the silencer and the sample provided by Robert Boutflour.  This does not prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was Sheila's.  Many members of the population share Sheila and Robert's blood type and there's no record of where the silencer had been/who handled it.  This should have been made clear to the jury.  Instead they were misled into thinking that the blood in the silencer was a "perfect match" to Sheila's.  In other words that it was exclusive to Sheila.

All the rest about phone logs/calls/bikes/wetsuits/he said this/she said that/blah, blah it is not measurable/scientific.  It is all subjective.

Do you understand why their Lordships were unable to state categorically under the Law that the 17-marker match with Sheila Caffell found in the silencer was deemed inconclusive?   I will tell you. 

Under UK Law only a 20-marker match can be used to establish fact capable of sustaining a conviction.  It is much less in other countries such as the USA but there you have it, the UK has set a very high bar.  That said, the chances of someone else's DNA having a 17-marker match with Sheila Caffell in such circumstances are billions to one.  You might want to accept such odds as inconclusive but I certainly don't and won't. 

As far as the probabilities are concerned Sheila's DNA was most definitely found in the silencer and anyone who claims otherwise is blowing bubbles.  The sample was too small to establish what this DNA came from.

And as I stated earlier, the issue of the silencer has no relevance for me as there is plenty of evidence to prove that Jeremy Bamber was indeed a cold blooded killer.