There were nets that wooshed and drapes on the window

[misty]

The duty of taking care of your own children when they are in your charge  is with the parents, no one else.

Remember that when arguing the toss about the tragic situation this week, won't you?

[stephen25000]

Remember that when arguing the toss about the tragic situation this week, won't you?

Are you even vaguely aware of the magnitude of what has happened. ?

[Eleanor]

We are not discussing the horror story in London.

I will be Deleting now if this continues.

[G-Unit]

I dont think many cars had safety belts at all in the days that mine were babies/young children.  I can remember it becoming Law later that the driver and passengers must have safety belts ... and the uproar as some (stupid) people refused to conform.   

However a friend had child car seats with restraints and I desperately wanted them for my children.  The traffic wasn't so heavy then and I guess I/we were pretty OK drivers cos despite driving to and thru London etc we never had a bump.   Not many women drove in those days.


I made several mistakes with my children, but I was aware and never took them as babies into our bed.  Our son was a dreadful sleeper and I was up all thru the night walking and rocking him or lieing on the carpet by his cot patting him.  It left me like a zombie in the daytime but after seven years and specialists treatment (they did no good, but eventually put him on phenobarbitrates  YIKE! ... I didn't give them to him) suddenly he started sleeping .... Bliss


Nobody, NOBODY  ever held my mistakes against me.

FGS the way some of you keep putting the boot into Tha Mccanns is absolutely appalling


And BTW, Sstephen , it was not immediate but The Mccanns very resoundingly expressed their regret at the mistake they had made.


I think that they (at least Kate) had experienced holidays as children themselves where the BUTLINS type checking was considered OK ... and it took them a while to comprehend the situation fully. 

Kates dad talks about his daughter and son in Law and their "CHALET" in Praia de Luz.   I think it is in his statement.   

BUTLINS Child Checking Service was a member of staff cycling around and listening at each chalet every half hour.  The parents were not involved and could be anywhere on the Butlins site.  Some of them were pretty massive.  My understanding is that they were called back if their child was crying.

Butlins now think that using nurseries and baby listening services is somewhat old fashioned;

During the 1940s the attitude towards child care and holidaying as a family was very different to today. Parents would often prefer for someone to look after their children for a couple of hours whilst they enjoyed some time to themselves, a rare thing in these times.....Recognising this and hoping to create a solution, Billy asked one of the team, Anna Hayter, to organise child care for children aged between 2-5 years and with that the first nursery centre was created at Clacton in 1946.....Today we no longer have nurseries on resort as we understand that families needs have changed....Another service welcomed by parents of the 1940s & 1950s was the baby listening service.
http://blog.butlins.com/2016/04/08/80years-of-tots/

[sadie]

Butlins now think that using nurseries and baby listening services is somewhat old fashioned;

During the 1940s the attitude towards child care and holidaying as a family was very different to today. Parents would often prefer for someone to look after their children for a couple of hours whilst they enjoyed some time to themselves, a rare thing in these times.....Recognising this and hoping to create a solution, Billy asked one of the team, Anna Hayter, to organise child care for children aged between 2-5 years and with that the first nursery centre was created at Clacton in 1946.....Today we no longer have nurseries on resort as we understand that families needs have changed....Another service welcomed by parents of the 1940s & 1950s was the baby listening service.
http://blog.butlins.com/2016/04/08/80years-of-tots/

... and it seems this Baby Listening Service continued into the 80's.
Kate and Gerry were both born in the mid to late 60's

Kates father talked about CHALETS in his ?statement, so it seems that Kate (and possibly Gerry) may have experienced the baby/child Listening Service when she/they were children.   If so and it had been the norm in their childhood, why would she/they see any wrong in it? 

After all their checks were better than the Butlins checks, they went inside the flat against listening outside by a stranger at Butlins.  The group of friends also had a good view at 50 metres of the illuminated patio where a stranger had to pass thru to get in.  They (erroniusly) believed the front of the house to be secure.  They must have felt that their method was pretty good ..., and it was relative to the Butlins service


https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100303074132AABr8ay&page=1

At butlins in the eighties, I never used it as I thought my children should be with me, and perverts haven't just suddenly appeared, they have been around always. The person walking around listening for a child crying could have easily been one. It's a very sad world we live in, and I think the focus should be taken off the McCanns, and onto the disgusting perverts we have to have living amongst us! These people were loving parents, not chain smoking, cannabis taking, useless excuses for parents that we have to put up with in this country! Spending all their dole money on drink and drugs, never even taking their children for a day out, let alone a family holiday! But, as usual, the very shallow people go for the easy targets.Phew, thank goodness I got all that lot out. XXX

[Erngath]

... and it seems this Baby Listening Service continued into the 80's.
Kate and Gerry were both born in the mid to late 60's

Kates father talked about CHALETS in his ?statement, so it seems that Kate (and possibly Gerry) may have experienced the baby/child Listening Service when she/they were children.   If so and it had been the norm in their childhood, why would she/they see any wrong in it? 

After all their checks were better than the Butlins checks, they went inside the flat against listening outside by a stranger at Butlins.  The group of friends also had a good view at 50 metres of the illuminated patio where a stranger had to pass thru to get in.  They (erroniusly) believed the front of the house to be secure.  They must have felt that their method was pretty good ..., and it was relative to the Butlins service


https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100303074132AABr8ay&page=1

At butlins in the eighties, I never used it as I thought my children should be with me, and perverts haven't just suddenly appeared, they have been around always. The person walking around listening for a child crying could have easily been one. It's a very sad world we live in, and I think the focus should be taken off the McCanns, and onto the disgusting perverts we have to have living amongst us! These people were loving parents, not chain smoking, cannabis taking, useless excuses for parents that we have to put up with in this country! Spending all their dole money on drink and drugs, never even taking their children for a day out, let alone a family holiday! But, as usual, the very shallow people go for the easy targets.Phew, thank goodness I got all that lot out. XXX

I'm glad you got all that out too.
Well said x

[G-Unit]

... and it seems this Baby Listening Service continued into the 80's.
Kate and Gerry were both born in the mid to late 60's

Kates father talked about CHALETS in his ?statement, so it seems that Kate (and possibly Gerry) may have experienced the baby/child Listening Service when she/they were children.   If so and it had been the norm in their childhood, why would she/they see any wrong in it? 

After all their checks were better than the Butlins checks, they went inside the flat against listening outside by a stranger at Butlins.  The group of friends also had a good view at 50 metres of the illuminated patio where a stranger had to pass thru to get in.  They (erroniusly) believed the front of the house to be secure.  They must have felt that their method was pretty good ..., and it was relative to the Butlins service


https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100303074132AABr8ay&page=1

At butlins in the eighties, I never used it as I thought my children should be with me, and perverts haven't just suddenly appeared, they have been around always. The person walking around listening for a child crying could have easily been one. It's a very sad world we live in, and I think the focus should be taken off the McCanns, and onto the disgusting perverts we have to have living amongst us! These people were loving parents, not chain smoking, cannabis taking, useless excuses for parents that we have to put up with in this country! Spending all their dole money on drink and drugs, never even taking their children for a day out, let alone a family holiday! But, as usual, the very shallow people go for the easy targets.Phew, thank goodness I got all that lot out. XXX

Kate's father could just as easily been thinking of Mark Warner when he said 'chalet'. They made their name offering chalet holidays to skiers.

Leaving the door unlocked means the children were not being cared for as if there was a listening service.

No-one was watching the apartments, and even if they glanced over Rchael said they could only see the top of the patio doors.

They never even thought about the front or they would have made sure to lock the front door and window.

I get the impression that to be a loving parent you have to be a non-smoking, non-drinking, non-drug taking working person with enough money to pay for family holidays.

Love can be found in the poorest households, Sadie, and family holidays are not an indicator that it exists. Love is putting the other person's needs before your own, spending time with them, listening to them and having fun together. IMO.

[Robittybob1]

I assume that when the family arrived the shutters and curtains were open. The nets were probably closed for privacy. They closed the shutters and curtains and the closed curtains flew up on 3rd. Kate is quite clear in her book.

I very much doubt that the police photographer moved anything. His job was to record the scene as the police found it, not to rearrange it. If the curtains and nets were opened it wasn't by him imo.

On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from
the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week.....

As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. [Madeleine]

"As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. [Madeleine]"  If the heavy drape curtains "flew up" when they settled down they would fall over the bed and the chair, so I can't imagine the strength of the wind that would enable that to happen, so I can only accept that it was the net curtains that raised in the breeze. 
It could be Kate that opened the nets for she seems to  admit at least looking behind them "I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up".

[Benice]

Kate's father could just as easily been thinking of Mark Warner when he said 'chalet'. They made their name offering chalet holidays to skiers.

Leaving the door unlocked means the children were not being cared for as if there was a listening service.

No-one was watching the apartments, and even if they glanced over Rchael said they could only see the top of the patio doors.

They never even thought about the front or they would have made sure to lock the front door and window.

I get the impression that to be a loving parent you have to be a non-smoking, non-drinking, non-drug taking working person with enough money to pay for family holidays.

Love can be found in the poorest households, Sadie, and family holidays are not an indicator that it exists. Love is putting the other person's needs before your own, spending time with them, listening to them and having fun together. IMO.

....and accepting that even the most loving parents can make mistakes - as A&E depts in every hospital can testify on a daily basis.

It's obvious to me that Madeleine was truly wanted, loved and adored by her parents.  This loving, happy family was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO - in the same way that Ben Needham, Sara Payne and Jamie Bulger's families, amongst others, also were.

All those children's parents have suffered criticism and denigration by some.  None of it even remotely deserved IMO.    It's just plain cruel.

It's noticeable that the parents of other abducted children who have met with or spoken to the McCanns all support them and believe that Madeleine was a abducted.       If anyone could spot a fake it would be those people IMO.   They couldn't be more expert on the subject if they tried.

IMO

[G-Unit]

....and accepting that even the most loving parents can make mistakes - as A&E depts in every hospital can testify on a daily basis.

It's obvious to me that Madeleine was truly wanted, loved and adored by her parents.  This loving, happy family was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO - in the same way that Ben Needham, Sara Payne and Jamie Bulger's families, amongst others, also were.

All those children's parents have suffered criticism and denigration by some.  None of it even remotely deserved IMO.    It's just plain cruel.

It's noticeable that the parents of other abducted children who have met with or spoken to the McCanns all support them and believe that Madeleine was a abducted.       If anyone could spot a fake it would be those people IMO.   They couldn't be more expert on the subject if they tried.

IMO

If an A & E doctor discovered that a child was injured because it's parents had gone out and left it home alone would he or she see that as a mistake or a worrying error of judgement?

I would be interested in exactly what convinces you that the McCanns wanted, loved and adored MBM.

[G-Unit]

"As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. [Madeleine]"  If the heavy drape curtains "flew up" when they settled down they would fall over the bed and the chair, so I can't imagine the strength of the wind that would enable that to happen, so I can only accept that it was the net curtains that raised in the breeze. 
It could be Kate that opened the nets for she seems to  admit at least looking behind them "I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up".

You have said previously that in your opinion Kate told the truth. She has said the curtains were closed and they whooshed in the wind. You have spotted that it's unlikely that the wind could blow those curtains up like she says it did. So now you're saying she said curtains but meant nets? Do you have any reason to suppose she doesn't know the difference between curtains and nets? Most people do. Theories should follow evidence, not change it.

[Eleanor]

Nets are Curtains.  At least that's what I call them.  This is just nit picking.

[Benice]

If an A & E doctor discovered that a child was injured because it's parents had gone out and left it home alone would he or she see that as a mistake or a worrying error of judgement?

I would be interested in exactly what convinces you that the McCanns wanted, loved and adored MBM.

I would bet my house that the majority of parents of children who end up in A&E are essentially to blame - either because they took their eye off the ball,or they made an error of judgement etc etc.    Fortunately not being a perfect parent at all times isn't a crime in this country.   Unless your name is McCann of course.

The McCanns tried for a family for years - and then eventually resorted to IVF.  Surely that in itself is a measure of their deep longing for a child.  They were so delighted to have Madeleine  - they decided to have more children.   

There are loads of family photographs showing what a lovely life Madeleine had - some would say 'privileged' compared to many other children.  The McCann's joy at being parents also shines through many photos - and videos imo.

Not a single person who actually knows them has a bad word to say about them - either as parents or people.    Quite the opposite in fact.

Anyone who has any doubts that Madeleine was not wanted, loved and adored needs to back it up with evidence IMO.

[Mr Gray]

If an A & E doctor discovered that a child was injured because it's parents had gone out and left it home alone would he or she see that as a mistake or a worrying error of judgement?

I would be interested in exactly what convinces you that the McCanns wanted, loved and adored MBM.

I would say Maddie was wanted loved and adored and the fact that you don't realise this tells me how wide of the mark your reasoning is   imo
I have to put imo but imo your suggestion is ridiculous

[Robittybob1]

You have said previously that in your opinion Kate told the truth. She has said the curtains were closed and they whooshed in the wind. You have spotted that it's unlikely that the wind could blow those curtains up like she says it did. So now you're saying she said curtains but meant nets? Do you have any reason to suppose she doesn't know the difference between curtains and nets? Most people do. Theories should follow evidence, not change it.

It is a bit confusing if it all happened as Kate says so how can we make sense out of it?

I think when they left both the nets and the drapes were closed.  I proposed that the burglars in their attempt to enter raise the shutter and open the window and push the drapes apart but on the left (as we look at the photo) the drape is jammed behind the bed and retains the push indentation.  The burglars are interrupted and pull the nets across the window and scarper.