Author Topic: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?  (Read 49342 times)

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Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2017, 08:35:55 PM »
If human hair and bone fragments were large enough to be found - then there should have been no problem in extracting DNA evidence from them.   That would have been the obvious action for any police force to take at that point in a murder investigation - as it would virtually close the case.      So when was that testing done and what were the results?     I haven't been able to find them - but obviously that does not mean they are not there.

Could you provide them please Angelo.

All they were able to establish was that the samples were human, the chemical contamination prevented DNA analysis.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Benice

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #91 on: August 08, 2017, 09:26:08 AM »
All they were able to establish was that the samples were human, the chemical contamination prevented DNA analysis.

Could you (or Angelo)  point me to the forensic report which confirms 'chemical contamination'  please John.   I ask because it sounds so unlikely to me that LC and her brother were so clever they were able to take action designed to thwart forensic testing so very successfully - if that is what is being claimed.   For example what was the chemical contamination on the shoes which prevented blood found on them from being identified by DNA testing?

Finding human hair and blood where humans live and move around cannot be regarded as evidence of murder in any way shape or form IMO, but I am interested to know how bone fragments could be identified as human - but could not be identified as belonging to Joana.

Did DNA testing actually take place?


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Angelo222

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2017, 02:37:08 AM »
Could you (or Angelo)  point me to the forensic report which confirms 'chemical contamination'  please John.   I ask because it sounds so unlikely to me that LC and her brother were so clever they were able to take action designed to thwart forensic testing so very successfully - if that is what is being claimed.   For example what was the chemical contamination on the shoes which prevented blood found on them from being identified by DNA testing?

Finding human hair and blood where humans live and move around cannot be regarded as evidence of murder in any way shape or form IMO, but I am interested to know how bone fragments could be identified as human - but could not be identified as belonging to Joana.

Did DNA testing actually take place?

There is a very detailed explanation of all this in the appeal court transcript.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:40:06 AM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline misty

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2017, 06:45:02 PM »
There is a very detailed explanation of all this in the appeal court transcript.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg106091#msg106091
"Gonçalo Amaral, Coordinating Inspector PJ (Jan 2007): "In the first statements given to the GNR, the first agency to arrive, it was a badly told story. There were various contradictions amongst certain people, witnesses, who were part of the family group where Joana lived. Based on these contradictions, there arose at a certain time the need for a new interrogation of these individuals, with all these witnesses, at the same time, at the police headquarters, such that they couldn't confer between themselves, and with the principal objective to understand whether the girl had, or had not, returned home. From there, it was proved that the girl had returned home. That is, it was a lie, there was a simulation of a disappearance. From there, it was necessary to determine what had happened." "

Sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it?

Can you link the part about the bone fragments in the pig pen please, Angelo?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 11:09:20 PM by John »

Offline sadie

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2017, 09:08:43 PM »
All they were able to establish was that the samples were human, the chemical contamination prevented DNA analysis.

They didn't even find out if it was pig or human, did they, John?   Please provide a bonafide cite if I am wrong.

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2017, 11:11:39 PM »
They didn't even find out if it was pig or human, did they, John?   Please provide a bonafide cite if I am wrong.

The blood traces found on the wall, the door jam, the floor, the shoes and the fridge were HUMAN.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 11:37:58 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Benice

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2017, 04:40:24 PM »
The blood traces found on the wall, the door jam, the floor, the shoes and the fridge were HUMAN.

Surely if it was found in large enough quantities to be forensically proved to be human blood - then surely it could also have been DNA tested.  T

The fact that there was no DNA evidence speaks volumes IMO.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:00:07 AM by John »
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2017, 02:03:42 AM »
Surely if it was found in large enough quantities to be forensically proved to be human blood - then surely it could also have been DNA tested. 

The fact that there was no DNA evidence speaks volumes IMO.

One would have thought so. Seems the chemicals used to clean the surfaces impeded successful DNA testing.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline misty

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2017, 12:58:49 AM »
https://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/860930/caso-joana-algo-aconteceu-mas-aquela-miuda-nao-foi-morta-em-casa

Thirteen years later, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of little Joana, in the village of Figueira, remains. The News to the Minute spoke to two neighbors of the Cipriano family and the child's stepfather, testimonies that help rebuild a case that left deep marks on those who lived it closely.


The day of September 12, 2004 will hardly be erased from the national memory, particularly from the inhabitants of Figueira village, in the municipality of Portimão.

Today marks 13 years since that fateful Sunday, when Joana Cipriano disappeared at the age of eight, around 9:00 pm, after going shopping for a coffee near her house.

After these 13 years, a lot of ink ran on what really happened that night, in court, in the coffee talks, in the media. It was assumed that Joana might have been sold, or at least that was the original intention. It was also assumed that she might have been kidnapped.

The truth is that the body never came to appear.

However, her mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her uncle, João Cipriano, would admit to having killed Joana. There is a thesis that the body was cut and fed to the pigs. There is a suspicion that Joana has caught her mother and uncle having sex and that she has been killed because of it.

Leonor and João Cipriano were sentenced to 16 years and eight months in prison for homicide and concealment in 2006. In November of the previous year, they had been sentenced to 20 years and four months and 19 years and two months in prison, respectively, but penalty was eventually reduced.

Today, in the village of Figueira, although the case is closed by Justice, doubts and contradictions about what will have actually happened that night persist.

Ophelia Zeverino, who at the time was working in a café near Joana's house, was the last person to see the child before her disappearance. To the News to the Minute, says that, in the night of 12 of September of 2004, the small Joana went to its establishment to buy "a package of milk and two cans of conserved".

The only thing strange, then, was that the girl did not ask about her daughter, something she always did - besides going to the same school, in the same class, they were friends and they played together regularly. Later, Joana's stepfather, Leandro Silva, accompanied by another friend appeared at the café.

Leandro, then the companion of Leonor Cipriano, says that on the night of his disappearance he was not at home, but in Portimão. She left home at noon and only returned shortly after 9:00 pm, after Joana disappeared. I heard about the case through João Cipriano, a presence he says was unusual at home.

The enigmatic presence of João Cipriano

According to Leandro Silva, Joana's uncle had never been to Figueira to visit his family. In fact, he himself states that he does not know "even how he discovered the door". "It was the first time he [João Cipriano] appeared there at home. I do not even know how. Suddenly he appeared to me on Saturday at about 05:00 in the morning. That night I even slept on the sofa. " From Leonor Cipriano, he says, he never got any justification for the sudden appearance of his brother.

Júlia, fictitious name, neighbor of Leonor Cipriano, reiterates that, before the case, had never seen the uncle of Joan. "I just remember seeing him in the paper. I'd never seen him around, never heard of him. I only recognized him after starting to see him in newspapers and magazines, "he says.
Different version has Ofélia Zeverino, also she lives in the same street, that counts to have seen João Cipriano "five or six times" in the coffee, including to "drink a beer" with Leandro. "[João Cipriano] came here often, at lunchtime, to drink coffee with his sister. One thing that struck me in court statements was that Leandro stated that his brother-in-law never came here. More than five or six times I saw Joao and his sister. I came to see them [Leandro and João] together, to drink a beer. "

At the trial, João Cipriano confessed to the crime. At the time, he admitted having beaten and murdered the child. Then, according to his version, he cut it and, with the complicity of Leonor Cipriano, hid the body, which was later fed to the pigs.

Following this version, the reason that caused the uncle and the mother to kill Joana remains quite confused. Leonor Cipriano even admitted that at the origin of the crime was a failed attempt to sell her daughter to a childless couple, who would take her abroad. The proposal, as she herself stated, was based on her brother. However, the plan would have gone badly and Joanna would have found out, so the two brothers eventually killed her so she would not tell what happened. Another version conveyed was that the child will have caught mother and uncle having sex.

"Joana never complained about anything"

In Figueira, Joana Cipriano is remembered as a child "super sweet and calm", "a girl very oriented, calm, super educated". They say she "had conversations that looked like an adult."

Julia says that one day, at the request of Leonor Cipriano, who did not have that day to go to Portimão, she took little Joana to the dentist. Then they passed a hypermarket, back to school, and Joana said she still had no backpack. Júlia decided to offer her the pack immediately, despite the child's refusal, which eventually gave in and accepted her. "After giving her the backpack, she grabbed me and gave me two kisses and thanked her," she says.

Like Júlia's son, Joana had a habit of playing regularly with Ophelia Zeverino's daughter, who came several times to pick her up at school. The three friends lunched together, and none of these mothers ever suspected that Joana was in trouble or in any danger.

But after all this time, the way Ophelia looks back gains another dimension. "Now, after what has happened, I begin to realize that it conveyed any sadness. Maybe a girl for fear of something, "she confides. However, he maintains the idea that the Cipriano family had no financial problems since they even used to spend some money on their coffee. "Economic difficulties? I think not. Joana never complained about anything.

The same thesis is defended by Leandro Silva, who guarantees that "there was never anything lacking at home". When she began to take care of Joana, the girl was only three. The relationship with Leonor Cipriano, native of the Alentejo, began in 1999. They met in Silves, lived in Porches, parish of the county of Lagoa, and eventually reached Figueira, since Leandro's mother had scrap in the area, in the village of Senhora do Verde, where he then went to work.

When he speaks of Joana, Leandro remembers her as "her cub". "She always slept beside me. Often, when I slept on the couch, I would wake up in the morning, covered up. She was the one who covered me. She was the one who treated the brothers. It was my baby, "she recalls, smiling.

Today, Leandro left his work in the scrap and works as a bricklayer and plumber, with a contract of employment, in a firm. He lives in Mexilhoeira Grande, about two kilometers from Figueira.

He managed to rebuild his life, though it was difficult, as he admits, since, after Joana disappeared, many suspicions came over him. However, he says, no one in the village "looks at him from the side." "On the contrary, those who looked at me aside, nowadays, are the ones that give me the most strength. In Mexilhoeira, everyone supports me and I do not suffer as much. "

"Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home"

Julia says that on the night of Joana's disappearance, she was at home when she heard Leonor Cyprian calling for her daughter, after she disappeared. It was not until the following night that the child had not yet returned home.

Ophelia Zeverino, who, remember, was the last person to see Joana, as soon as she left the cafe around midnight, went immediately to meet the Cipriano family to see if there were any news yet, since Leonor , João and Leandro went to the café about 22:00 to ask about the child's whereabouts.

What aroused Ophelia's particular apprehension was the "calmness" of Joana's mother, a situation also confirmed by Julia: "I thought she was a bit too calm. As a mother, if my daughter disappeared, I would not be as calm as she was. But everyone reacts in their own way, "he says.

At that time, as the family had not yet alerted the authorities, Ophelia offered to contact the GNR, which she did immediately, with the family's endorsement, which reiterates that she did not do so because she did not have a balance on her cell phone. Nevertheless, he does not hide his strangeness from the coldness of the Cipriano family.

What happened next is known. Mother and uncle admitted the crime, with versions that have been changing over the years, although they have never denied the murder of the child. However, this is a thesis that does not convince many of the residents of Figueira, even because, they acknowledge, Leonor Cipriano had a very close relationship with the daughter and treated her affectionately. "In our view, she [Leonor Ciprinano] was very affectionate with her children," says Ophelia, a vision shared by Leandro Silva. "I know that Leonor liked the girl very much."

Not by exonerating Leonor Cipriano or putting aside his involvement in the disappearance of the child, the thesis of abduction or sale is seen, by Ophelia and Leandro, as most likely. "Dead? No. Now that she has a business with her brother and has sold the girl ... I still believe that, "says Leandro. "As for me, the girl was taken that night. Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home, "Ophelia reiterates.

The neighbor, who then worked in the cafe, goes further and points the finger at the Judicial Police, especially at Lisbon. "For me, the work of the Judiciary [Police] was a complete failure. These two people were arrested based on what? In nothing. Where are the traces? Where is the girl? There is nothing. Do you know why they were arrested? Because they did not have money, "he says. To Ophelia, Joana never arrived at home. Proof of that? The milk carton and the preserves she sold to the girl were never found.

Thirteen years after that tragic night, which no one in the village will ever forget, are more questions and contradictions than answers. The truth is that life in Figueira, despite the return to normal, was never the same and residents, when they remember the days that followed the disappearance of Joan, do not hide the discomfort. Like Ophelia Zeverino, who spent sleepless nights. "For many nights, it seemed like I heard Joan calling for my daughter. I've been sleepless nights because of it. How could anyone disappear on this street? "

===================================================================


Something for the cynics to chew over.

Offline sadie

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2017, 12:59:18 PM »
https://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/860930/caso-joana-algo-aconteceu-mas-aquela-miuda-nao-foi-morta-em-casa

Thirteen years later, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of little Joana, in the village of Figueira, remains. The News to the Minute spoke to two neighbors of the Cipriano family and the child's stepfather, testimonies that help rebuild a case that left deep marks on those who lived it closely.


The day of September 12, 2004 will hardly be erased from the national memory, particularly from the inhabitants of Figueira village, in the municipality of Portimão.

Today marks 13 years since that fateful Sunday, when Joana Cipriano disappeared at the age of eight, around 9:00 pm, after going shopping for a coffee near her house.

After these 13 years, a lot of ink ran on what really happened that night, in court, in the coffee talks, in the media. It was assumed that Joana might have been sold, or at least that was the original intention. It was also assumed that she might have been kidnapped.

The truth is that the body never came to appear.

However, her mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her uncle, João Cipriano, would admit to having killed Joana. There is a thesis that the body was cut and fed to the pigs. There is a suspicion that Joana has caught her mother and uncle having sex and that she has been killed because of it.

Leonor and João Cipriano were sentenced to 16 years and eight months in prison for homicide and concealment in 2006. In November of the previous year, they had been sentenced to 20 years and four months and 19 years and two months in prison, respectively, but penalty was eventually reduced.

Today, in the village of Figueira, although the case is closed by Justice, doubts and contradictions about what will have actually happened that night persist.

Ophelia Zeverino, who at the time was working in a café near Joana's house, was the last person to see the child before her disappearance. To the News to the Minute, says that, in the night of 12 of September of 2004, the small Joana went to its establishment to buy "a package of milk and two cans of conserved".

The only thing strange, then, was that the girl did not ask about her daughter, something she always did - besides going to the same school, in the same class, they were friends and they played together regularly. Later, Joana's stepfather, Leandro Silva, accompanied by another friend appeared at the café.

Leandro, then the companion of Leonor Cipriano, says that on the night of his disappearance he was not at home, but in Portimão. She left home at noon and only returned shortly after 9:00 pm, after Joana disappeared. I heard about the case through João Cipriano, a presence he says was unusual at home.

The enigmatic presence of João Cipriano

According to Leandro Silva, Joana's uncle had never been to Figueira to visit his family. In fact, he himself states that he does not know "even how he discovered the door". "It was the first time he [João Cipriano] appeared there at home. I do not even know how. Suddenly he appeared to me on Saturday at about 05:00 in the morning. That night I even slept on the sofa. " From Leonor Cipriano, he says, he never got any justification for the sudden appearance of his brother.

Júlia, fictitious name, neighbor of Leonor Cipriano, reiterates that, before the case, had never seen the uncle of Joan. "I just remember seeing him in the paper. I'd never seen him around, never heard of him. I only recognized him after starting to see him in newspapers and magazines, "he says.
Different version has Ofélia Zeverino, also she lives in the same street, that counts to have seen João Cipriano "five or six times" in the coffee, including to "drink a beer" with Leandro. "[João Cipriano] came here often, at lunchtime, to drink coffee with his sister. One thing that struck me in court statements was that Leandro stated that his brother-in-law never came here. More than five or six times I saw Joao and his sister. I came to see them [Leandro and João] together, to drink a beer. "

At the trial, João Cipriano confessed to the crime. At the time, he admitted having beaten and murdered the child. Then, according to his version, he cut it and, with the complicity of Leonor Cipriano, hid the body, which was later fed to the pigs.

Following this version, the reason that caused the uncle and the mother to kill Joana remains quite confused. Leonor Cipriano even admitted that at the origin of the crime was a failed attempt to sell her daughter to a childless couple, who would take her abroad. The proposal, as she herself stated, was based on her brother. However, the plan would have gone badly and Joanna would have found out, so the two brothers eventually killed her so she would not tell what happened. Another version conveyed was that the child will have caught mother and uncle having sex.

"Joana never complained about anything"

In Figueira, Joana Cipriano is remembered as a child "super sweet and calm", "a girl very oriented, calm, super educated". They say she "had conversations that looked like an adult."

Julia says that one day, at the request of Leonor Cipriano, who did not have that day to go to Portimão, she took little Joana to the dentist. Then they passed a hypermarket, back to school, and Joana said she still had no backpack. Júlia decided to offer her the pack immediately, despite the child's refusal, which eventually gave in and accepted her. "After giving her the backpack, she grabbed me and gave me two kisses and thanked her," she says.

Like Júlia's son, Joana had a habit of playing regularly with Ophelia Zeverino's daughter, who came several times to pick her up at school. The three friends lunched together, and none of these mothers ever suspected that Joana was in trouble or in any danger.

But after all this time, the way Ophelia looks back gains another dimension. "Now, after what has happened, I begin to realize that it conveyed any sadness. Maybe a girl for fear of something, "she confides. However, he maintains the idea that the Cipriano family had no financial problems since they even used to spend some money on their coffee. "Economic difficulties? I think not. Joana never complained about anything.

The same thesis is defended by Leandro Silva, who guarantees that "there was never anything lacking at home". When she began to take care of Joana, the girl was only three. The relationship with Leonor Cipriano, native of the Alentejo, began in 1999. They met in Silves, lived in Porches, parish of the county of Lagoa, and eventually reached Figueira, since Leandro's mother had scrap in the area, in the village of Senhora do Verde, where he then went to work.

When he speaks of Joana, Leandro remembers her as "her cub". "She always slept beside me. Often, when I slept on the couch, I would wake up in the morning, covered up. She was the one who covered me. She was the one who treated the brothers. It was my baby, "she recalls, smiling.

Today, Leandro left his work in the scrap and works as a bricklayer and plumber, with a contract of employment, in a firm. He lives in Mexilhoeira Grande, about two kilometers from Figueira.

He managed to rebuild his life, though it was difficult, as he admits, since, after Joana disappeared, many suspicions came over him. However, he says, no one in the village "looks at him from the side." "On the contrary, those who looked at me aside, nowadays, are the ones that give me the most strength. In Mexilhoeira, everyone supports me and I do not suffer as much. "

"Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home"

Julia says that on the night of Joana's disappearance, she was at home when she heard Leonor Cyprian calling for her daughter, after she disappeared. It was not until the following night that the child had not yet returned home.

Ophelia Zeverino, who, remember, was the last person to see Joana, as soon as she left the cafe around midnight, went immediately to meet the Cipriano family to see if there were any news yet, since Leonor , João and Leandro went to the café about 22:00 to ask about the child's whereabouts.

What aroused Ophelia's particular apprehension was the "calmness" of Joana's mother, a situation also confirmed by Julia: "I thought she was a bit too calm. As a mother, if my daughter disappeared, I would not be as calm as she was. But everyone reacts in their own way, "he says.

At that time, as the family had not yet alerted the authorities, Ophelia offered to contact the GNR, which she did immediately, with the family's endorsement, which reiterates that she did not do so because she did not have a balance on her cell phone. Nevertheless, he does not hide his strangeness from the coldness of the Cipriano family.

What happened next is known. Mother and uncle admitted the crime, with versions that have been changing over the years, although they have never denied the murder of the child. However, this is a thesis that does not convince many of the residents of Figueira, even because, they acknowledge, Leonor Cipriano had a very close relationship with the daughter and treated her affectionately. "In our view, she [Leonor Ciprinano] was very affectionate with her children," says Ophelia, a vision shared by Leandro Silva. "I know that Leonor liked the girl very much."

Not by exonerating Leonor Cipriano or putting aside his involvement in the disappearance of the child, the thesis of abduction or sale is seen, by Ophelia and Leandro, as most likely. "Dead? No. Now that she has a business with her brother and has sold the girl ... I still believe that, "says Leandro. "As for me, the girl was taken that night. Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home, "Ophelia reiterates.

The neighbor, who then worked in the cafe, goes further and points the finger at the Judicial Police, especially at Lisbon. "For me, the work of the Judiciary [Police] was a complete failure. These two people were arrested based on what? In nothing. Where are the traces? Where is the girl? There is nothing. Do you know why they were arrested? Because they did not have money, "he says. To Ophelia, Joana never arrived at home. Proof of that? The milk carton and the preserves she sold to the girl were never found.

Thirteen years after that tragic night, which no one in the village will ever forget, are more questions and contradictions than answers. The truth is that life in Figueira, despite the return to normal, was never the same and residents, when they remember the days that followed the disappearance of Joan, do not hide the discomfort. Like Ophelia Zeverino, who spent sleepless nights. "For many nights, it seemed like I heard Joan calling for my daughter. I've been sleepless nights because of it. How could anyone disappear on this street? "

===================================================================


Something for the cynics to chew over.
Well done misty for finding this

I have a deep concern about this case as most of you know.  Interesting and good  that villagers in Figueira also have concerns.  So much about this case does not hold together ... and there was something in that article which linked with other things, few only unhappily, I have discovered.   Sorry I cant share them.

I just wish someone would start a group "Justice for the Ciprianos" as I am physically unable to do that.

None of us know for sure what happened to Joana but when it went to Court, there certainly was NO JUSTICE in that case,

It was a huge Miscarriage of Justice


I believe that I have two pointers that Joana is still alive, but as I cant be 100% sure, I cant progress them


Ermm, IMO 8)-))), of course

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2017, 11:46:54 PM »
No need to chew over anything, both Leonor and Joao Cipriano were guilty.  Despite initially claiming that she killed the child accidentally, Leonor Cipriano was complicit in a coverup aimed at protecting her brother who had already served a prison sentence for attempted murder.  Joao Cipriano later admitted killing the child in what he claimed was a botched attempt to sell her to foreigners.  He knows where her remains are buried yet refuses to reveal the location, he also got a lesser sentence than his sister, that for me is the real injustice.  Joao Cipriano got a very light sentence considering his violent past, yet despite the murder of his niece can now walk the streets of Portugal a free man.

Is that really justice?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:55:04 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline misty

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2017, 12:42:15 AM »
No need to chew over anything, both Leonor and Joao Cipriano were guilty.  Despite initially claiming that she killed the child accidentally, Leonor Cipriano was complicit in a coverup aimed at protecting her brother who had already served a prison sentence for attempted murder.  Joao Cipriano later admitted killing the child in what he claimed was a botched attempt to sell her to foreigners.  He knows where her remains are buried yet refuses to reveal the location, he also got a lesser sentence than his sister, that for me is the real injustice.  Joao Cipriano got a very light sentence considering his violent past, yet despite the murder of his niece can now walk the streets of Portugal a free man.

Is that really justice?

I find it obscene that one of the men who was probably responsible for torturing the Cipriano's in custody & is now facing various kidnapping, armed robbery & fraud crimes is still walking the streets & sitting on sofas in TV studios denouncing various people attached to FC Sporting & Benfica. But that's justice, Portuguese style, for you.

Offline misty

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2017, 06:12:14 PM »
Whilst searching for something unconnected, I came across this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_7617/index.html
The Reykjavik Confessions
The mystery of why six people admitted roles in two murders - when they couldn't remember anything about the crimes.


It's an interesting read covering false memory & policing methods not dissimilar to those in the Cipriano case, including a reconstruction of a death akin to Joao's.
Whilst the original disappearances occurred over 40 years ago & modern policing has the benefit of enhanced science/technology, the tendency of certain police to try & make any evidence fit a crime has sustained.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2017, 12:05:34 PM »
Whilst searching for something unconnected, I came across this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_7617/index.html
The Reykjavik Confessions
The mystery of why six people admitted roles in two murders - when they couldn't remember anything about the crimes.


It's an interesting read covering false memory & policing methods not dissimilar to those in the Cipriano case, including a reconstruction of a death akin to Joao's.
Whilst the original disappearances occurred over 40 years ago & modern policing has the benefit of enhanced science/technology, the tendency of certain police to try & make any evidence fit a crime has sustained.

Thanks, Misty, I'll read that with interest.

I have still never got to the bottom of the conditions of Leonor's initial interrogation...

Just because she wasn't battered black and blue and assessed by medics in that initial one doesn't mean that she wasn't coerced via other means (sleep deprivation, bluff techniques...).

Some people seem to readily accept that the same police who did later batter her treated her to coffee and cream cakes during the first one.



Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2017, 02:09:17 AM »
Sceptics seem to have difficulty with the fact that in common with every other country in the world Portugal is not quite the idyll they wish to portray.

There has been denial that burglaries occur; there has been denial that home invasions involving assaults on British girls happened.

I had never heard of Costa prior to recently catching up on old Portuguese newspaper reports: I found it an interesting read when bearing in mind the cases with which I am familiar.

Portugal has its problems and its killers just as ever other country in the world has.  It also has its fair share of domestic disputes and family related abductions.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.