Author Topic: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.  (Read 6230 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

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This is the story of a mass-murder that divided a nation.  A story that began in a rickety old home on a cold June morning in 1994, when five members of a seemingly ordinary New Zealand family were gunned down. There were two suspects.

One lay dead from a single bullet to his head. The other was the only survivor: David Bain. Since then the country has been divided as to who killed the Bain family? David Bain or his father Robin?



Here's an account of the family by Robin Bain's brother:

http://www.noted.co.nz/archive/listener-nz-2009/robin-was-no-killer-my-brothers-life/

Sounds rather sanitised compared with other accounts of marital disharmony; RB banished to live in a campervan at the bottom of the garden; 65 Every St a complete pigsty; claims that RB was depressed and having an incestuous relationship with LB who was a sex worker.  Surely not your average family in NZ?  Think the brother must have od on The Waltons.

The brother seems to think the fact RB was a Christian precludes him from any sort of wrongdoing:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690575/Pope-Francis-admits-two-cent-Roman-Catholic-priests-paedophiles-interview-Italian-newspaper.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/nuns-abused-hundreds-of-children-1171988.html 

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/13614/robin-bain-depressed-for-years,-trial-told 

Note in the article RB was into computers/IT so maybe he did leave the message: 'You're the only one who deserves to live'!

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible but don't know enough to have any strong opinions.


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« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 08:53:51 PM by John »
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Offline Myster

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Note in the article RB was into computers/IT so maybe he did leave the message: 'You're the only one who deserves to live'!

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible but don't know enough to have any strong opinions.

Robin Bain was a teacher, therefore capable of handwriting a note. So why waste time booting up a computer to type that curiously-worded message before his son returned?  To conceal its author's true identity, maybe?

Offline Myster

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Note in the article RB was into computers/IT so maybe he did leave the message: 'You're the only one who deserves to live'!

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible but don't know enough to have any strong opinions.
Robin Bain was a teacher, therefore capable of handwriting a note. So why waste time booting up a computer to type that curiously-worded message before his son returned?  To conceal its author's true identity, maybe?
Then there's David Bain's bloodsoaked opera gloves discovered under his brother's bed, and lens from the broken frame which David Bain wore, found in the same room, (why would Robin Bain go to the trouble of wearing his son's new gloves if he intended to commit suicide?); the undone rifle trigger lock whose key location was known only to David Bain; the bloody footprint stains in the hallway which he failed to notice on his way downstairs to wash his bloodstained pullover; and to cap it all, that ludicrously contrived 111 call made some 25 minutes! after he arrived home without noticing anything untoward had happened!   Even the call recipient sounded incredulous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA

Easier than solving a game of Cluedo!

Offline Samson

Then there's David Bain's bloodsoaked opera gloves discovered under his brother's bed, and lens from the broken frame which David Bain wore, found in the same room, (why would Robin Bain go to the trouble of wearing his son's new gloves if he intended to commit suicide?); the undone rifle trigger lock whose key location was known only to David Bain; the bloody footprint stains in the hallway which he failed to notice on his way downstairs to wash his bloodstained pullover; and to cap it all, that ludicrously contrived 111 call made some 25 minutes! after he arrived home without noticing anything untoward had happened!   Even the call recipient sounded incredulous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA

Easier than solving a game of Cluedo!
Why this why that.

I listened to the last episode of Black Hands.
Van Beynen claims it was a careful plan but that now Bain has blocked his memory of it. I can't imagine blocking the memory of constructing a careful plan over weeks when the outcome is your family is dead as planned.
He claims that David shot Robin from behind the curtain.
However we know with certainty the silencer was touching Robin's temple as the single shot was fired, this is an immutable data point.

What plan could count on Robin being close to the curtain and the single shot replicating a suicide trajectory?

This podcast series is a disgrace, Van Beynen should be locked up with some rocket scientists and aircraft engineers who must show their workings to make things safely airborne.

However in the comments section all 28 odd congratulate Van Beynen on solving it, and are incredulous that anyone could see it otherwise. This tells me something, but that something is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
Robin Bain shot the family, because he had blood on his hands at morning prayer, uncontested, and it was a contact wound, uncontested, and the trajectory was compatible with the most comfortable suicide pose, contested only by those who believe a right hander naturally picks up an object they will direct at themselves with the left hand.

He also makes the odd claim David's plan failed only because younger brother Stephen woke during the massacre so framing dad was compromised.
Jesus wept, who expects to blunder round a house with a gun and not wake one of the undead?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 06:21:40 PM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Then there's David Bain's bloodsoaked opera gloves discovered under his brother's bed, and lens from the broken frame which David Bain wore, found in the same room, (why would Robin Bain go to the trouble of wearing his son's new gloves if he intended to commit suicide?); the undone rifle trigger lock whose key location was known only to David Bain; the bloody footprint stains in the hallway which he failed to notice on his way downstairs to wash his bloodstained pullover; and to cap it all, that ludicrously contrived 111 call made some 25 minutes! after he arrived home without noticing anything untoward had happened!   Even the call recipient sounded incredulous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA

Easier than solving a game of Cluedo!

DB was found not guilty at his retrial in 2009.  He has since received nearly 925,000 NZ dollars ostensibly to cover legal fees! 

The points you raise above can easily be argued against:

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/309946/david-bain-denied-compensation
 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Why this why that.

I listened to the last episode of Black Hands.
Van Beynen claims it was a careful plan but that now Bain has blocked his memory of it. I can't imagine blocking the memory of constructing a careful plan over weeks when the outcome is your family is dead as planned.
He claims that David shot Robin from behind the curtain.
However we know with certainty the silencer was touching Robin's temple as the single shot was fired, this is an immutable data point.

What plan could count on Robin being close to the curtain and the single shot replicating a suicide trajectory?

This podcast series is a disgrace, Van Beynen should be locked up with some rocket scientists and aircraft engineers who must show their workings to make things safely airborne.

However in the comments section all 28 odd congratulate Van Beynen on solving it, and are incredulous that anyone could see it otherwise. This tells me something, but that something is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
Robin Bain shot the family, because he had blood on his hands at morning prayer, uncontested, and it was a contact wound, uncontested, and the trajectory was compatible with the most comfortable suicide pose, contested only by those who believe a right hander naturally picks up an object they will direct at themselves with the left hand.

He also makes the odd claim David's plan failed only because younger brother Stephen woke during the massacre so framing dad was compromised.
Jesus wept, who expects to blunder round a house with a gun and not wake one of the undead?

Imo wherever you find relgious themes playing out, other than the benign eg those that flock to church on a Sunday, you will find dysfunction and mental illness. 

Religion formed part of these cases.  RB praying.  SC with the bible in close proximity to her body although imo this was nothing to do with SC or JB but more than likely came to be as a result of June walking around the bed clutching her bible and dropping it.       
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 06:22:58 PM by John »
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Myster

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Imo wherever you find relgious themes playing out, other than the benign eg those that flock to church on a Sunday, you will find dysfunction and mental illness. 

Religion formed part of these cases.  RB praying.  SC with the bible in close proximity to her body although imo this was nothing to do with SC or JB but more than likely came to be as a result of June walking around the bed clutching her bible and dropping it.       

Explain David Bain's blood-soaked opera gloves hidden under Stephen's bed, Holly.  Surely you don't think Bain senior would actually go to the trouble of searching for and wearing them to prevent fingerprints, if he intended to commit suicide?!!!

Or Bain's various fits which first responders to the scene and even his jailer friend later noted and dismissed as fake. Listen to the Episode Four video of Graeme Stanley recalling his odd behaviour...

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/


Offline Myster

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Given the rifle belonged to DB why would he worry about fingerprints if he was the perp?  Why would he choose white opera gloves?  He had an early morning paper round and the murders occured during the winter months so I'm assuming he had winter gloves?  Were the gloves checked for gsr and other debris?  Were the gloves "hidden"?  The blood stains are described as "smears" so maybe RB picked them up to wipe something? 

I'll listen to the "odd behaviour" later but I see the same thing in all these cases and I don't consider it evidence of anything.  Blimey if I found myself charged with some crime I can hear it all now. "She was a bit odd...she called herself Naughty Nun on an internet forum dedicated to debating the case of Jeremy Bamber.  Then she was banned and reinvented herself as Holly Goodhead on another forum where she spent hours posting about Jeremy Bamber.  She was adopted too!  Says it all really.  Must be guilty.  I only wish we could find a way of circumventing the legal process.  We all know she's guilty and it would save the state thousands of pounds".   8(8-))

The fact remains that it's inconceivable why Robin Bain should have worn his son's new opera gloves, if he intended to suicide after killing them all!  Why would RB search them out in David's room just to wipe the rifle when there was plenty of bedding, clothes, towels, etc. to hand, lying around the house?  In my opinion, DB obviously didn't expect any fierce resistance from his younger brother and his gloves becoming heavily blood-soaked.

They were found under the bed...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2296381/Bloodied-gloves-found-under-Stephens-bed

ETA: the glove I posted in the 2nd photo doesn't appear to be like those in the 1st, so deleted it.  &%+((£
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:34:57 PM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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The fact remains that it's inconceivable why Robin Bain should have worn his son's new opera gloves, if he intended to suicide after killing them all!  Why would RB search them out in David's room just to wipe the rifle when there was plenty of bedding, clothes, towels, etc. to hand, lying around the house?  In my opinion, DB obviously didn't expect any fierce resistance from his younger brother and his gloves becoming heavily blood-soaked.

They were found under the bed...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2296381/Bloodied-gloves-found-under-Stephens-bed

ETA: the glove I posted in the 2nd photo doesn't appear to be like those in the 1st, so deleted it.  &%+((£

From the following doc page 133 and 134

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

2.
Crown Reliance On David Bain’s Opera Gloves Found In Stephen’s Room

443.
Det. Sgt Weir also found two “opera” gloves in Stephen’s bedroom smeared with
Stephen’s blood.  The Court of Appeal considered the bloodied gloves provided “support” for
the guilty verdict (para. 166).  The Crown Law Office submits that the only rational explanation
for the presence of these gloves is that the killer wore them “to avoid leaving fingerprints”
and that Robin, having decided to commit suicide, had no need for such concealment.  Of
course in the nature of these events, it cannot be said
when Robin decided to take his own life. 
It may have been long premeditated.  It may have been in the agony of a killing spree.   

444.
David Bain has no explanation for how the gloves got to Stephen’s room but suggests
Stephen could “quite possibly” have borrowed them at an earlier date (“’cos he was well
- known for coming into, and borrowing stuff of mine just because he looked up to me as his big
brother.  He liked getting dressed up in the things that I had.”)
However the appearance of  the gloves in the photographs clearly suggests some involvement in the fight.

445.
The important point is that there is no evidence linking the gloves to David at any
relevant time except through ownership which, as the Crown properly argued in the case of
Margaret’s spectacles, is irrelevant.  Robin’s hand is smaller than David’s.  A smaller hand can fit
in a larger glove.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:35:23 PM by John »
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Myster

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From the following doc page 133 and 134

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

2.
Crown Reliance On David Bain’s Opera Gloves Found In Stephen’s Room

443.
Det. Sgt Weir also found two “opera” gloves in Stephen’s bedroom smeared with
Stephen’s blood.  The Court of Appeal considered the bloodied gloves provided “support” for
the guilty verdict (para. 166).  The Crown Law Office submits that the only rational explanation
for the presence of these gloves is that the killer wore them “to avoid leaving fingerprints”
and that Robin, having decided to commit suicide, had no need for such concealment.  Of
course in the nature of these events, it cannot be said
when Robin decided to take his own life. 
It may have been long premeditated.  It may have been in the agony of a killing spree.   

444.
David Bain has no explanation for how the gloves got to Stephen’s room but suggests
Stephen could “quite possibly” have borrowed them at an earlier date (“’cos he was well
- known for coming into, and borrowing stuff of mine just because he looked up to me as his big
brother.  He liked getting dressed up in the things that I had.”)
However the appearance of  the gloves in the photographs clearly suggests some involvement in the fight.

445.
The important point is that there is no evidence linking the gloves to David at any
relevant time except through ownership which, as the Crown properly argued in the case of
Margaret’s spectacles, is irrelevant.  Robin’s hand is smaller than David’s.  A smaller hand can fit
in a larger glove.

I'll repeat again... there was no need for Robin to wear them, or remove them from Stephen's hands if he wore them (in bed!) when the struggle had ended, and then conceal them under the bed. Point 445 is baloney.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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I'll repeat again... there was no need for Robin to wear them, or remove them from Stephen's hands if he wore them (in bed!) when the struggle had ended, and then conceal them under the bed. Point 445 is baloney.

RB may not have worn them.  As I said he may have used them to wipe or touch something or someone.  Were the bloodstains analysed by a a bloodstain analyst?

If DB was the perp why would he wear gloves when he owned the gun and had a legitimate right to handle it and have his fingerprints on it?  Why leave them somewhere they were likely to be found?   

If one carries out mass murder for whatever reason(s) I think it could be said the perp(s) are at the very least temporarily 'disturbed' and therefore the environments at places like 65 Every St and WHF might well seem unfathomable to the rational mind!  At WHF we have the tampon applicator in the lounge and June's bloody bible taking centre stage. 

 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Myster

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RB may not have worn them.  As I said he may have used them to wipe or touch something or someone.  Were the bloodstains analysed by a a bloodstain analyst?

If DB was the perp why would he wear gloves when he owned the gun and had a legitimate right to handle it and have his fingerprints on it?  Why leave them somewhere they were likely to be found?   

If one carries out mass murder for whatever reason(s) I think it could be said the perp(s) are at the very least temporarily 'disturbed' and therefore the environments at places like 65 Every St and WHF might well seem unfathomable to the rational mind!  At WHF we have the tampon applicator in the lounge and June's bloody bible taking centre stage.

As in the Bamber case, the police failed to keep and/or test everything, so can't find any info on analysis of the gloves, but the blood was very likely from Stephen's massive injuries. Maybe DB's intention was to wipe the rifle clean of his own prints when everyone had been killed, then plant his father's on them while setting the scene.

The Bains seemed more dysfunctional, and untidier than the Bambers!

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 01:02:14 PM »
As in the Bamber case, the police failed to keep and/or test everything, so can't find any info on analysis of the gloves, but the blood was very likely from Stephen's massive injuries. Maybe DB's intention was to wipe the rifle clean of his own prints when everyone had been killed, then plant his father's on them while setting the scene.

The Bains seemed more dysfunctional, and untidier than the Bambers!

Post #129 seems to confirm the blood on the gloves originated from SB who I understand lost a lot of blood.  When I made ref to a blood stain analyst I was referring to an expert who may have been able to determine whether the gloves were actually worn when they became stained or whether they became "smeared" by being in the vicinity. 

If DB was keen to 'set the scene' why leave his heavily blood stained white opera gloves under SB's bed which ended up incriminating him?

I can't see there's any evidence to suggest the perp wore the gloves.  It may be the case the gloves were in SB's room and ended up smeared with blood and kicked under the bed.  How far under the bed were they?  In JB's case some docs refer to the casings as under the bed/wardrobe when the soc photos seem to depict them right on the edge.

The parents seem barking and it appears not only was the house untidy but was literally unhygienic.   

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2478273/The-Bain-mystery
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 01:32:15 PM »
If the following is true I would have thought there was a case for social services involved with the welfare of the children years before the murders:

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-devil-and-mrs-bain/




Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 02:04:42 PM »
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/margaret-bains-death-not-instant

She saw "a large female lying on her back"

"She said when the pathologist moved the lights above Mrs Bain's bed, some moths and silverfish fell out on to the bed".  Oh yuk!  Right I've had enough now  8)><(

At least the pathologist visited soc unlike Dr Vanezis.
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms