Author Topic: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.  (Read 6720 times)

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Offline Samson

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #210 on: September 10, 2017, 07:58:53 PM »
And I would add that anyone contemplating murder suicide will not be concerned with wearing gloves or hiding evidence.
How do you know Robin was contemplating suicide? He was not contemplating anything until he was blindsided by the incest Laniet had revealed to her mother.
And despite the terrible lies of Judith Collins, most New Zealanders understand that David Bain is innocent. The UMR figures from 2009 are, quote

► We've asked similar questions in the past about other high- profile trials:
► On all five occasions we tested opinions on the David Bain case, those who thought Bain was innocent outnumbered those who thought he was guilty.    
The last time we asked about this was in April 2009, when 47% thought that he was innocent and 29% believed he was guilty.
 
► 22% of us thought that Scott Watson was innocent of murdering Olivia Hope and Ben Smart, while 42% believed he
was guilty (May 2007)

► Only 4% believed that Mark Lundy did not kill his wife and daughter, compared with 65% who thought he did do it
(May 2007)
► 50% thought that Peter Ellis was innocent in the Christchurch Civic Creche case, while 23% believed he was guilty
(January 2004).

Frankly John, David Bain's innocence is not contested by serious analysts, it is a beat up designed by the national party, because conservatives live on the side of the law that never encounters police trickery. Polls drive politics in New Zealand and John Key was a master. His plebescite believe police work is definitive so David Bain was sacrificed and his due compensation stolen from him by immoral thugs in government.


Offline John

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #211 on: September 10, 2017, 10:58:01 PM »
Samson. David Bain is in an unenviable position.  His retrial found him not guilty yet the recent judge led government report would appear to question this verdict.

The suspicious evidence and the government report aside, the actions of David Bain following the initial call to police were extremely suspicious and not in the least consistent with innocence. That said, what enduring piece of evidence in your view proves his innocent?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 11:39:14 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #212 on: September 12, 2017, 03:41:34 PM »
Samson. David Bain is in an unenviable position. His retrial found him not guilty yet the recent judge led government report would appear to question this verdict.

The suspicious evidence and the government report aside, the actions of David Bain following the initial call to police were extremely suspicious and not in the least consistent with innocence. That said, what enduring piece of evidence in your view proves his innocent?

I find this confusing.  DB was found not guilty at his retrial.  The NZ gov then requested reports to assess whether DB was 'factually innocent' in order to be eligible for compensation.  And yet at trial or retrial no one has to prove his/her innocence.  Instead the prosecution have to show the defendant guilty which in DB's case at retrial they failed to do hence a verdict of 'not guilty'.  I think similar happened with Sion Jenkins in terms of verdict but no compensation?
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #213 on: September 12, 2017, 04:15:04 PM »
Reading the Mail on Sunday (yes my dirty little secret) the front page was about former PM Edward (Ted) Heath and claims about child sexual abuse. 

I am all for this being investigated but the problem, as with Robin Bain, is that the man is not here to respond and if applicable defend himself.  A lot of people seem to be of the opinion he was above anything like child sexual abuse  based on his background and position alone.  A few have suggested the security surrounding him was so high he would not have had the opportunity which sounds reasonable.  Also the fact he was a bit of a mystery sexually might have alerted the intelligence services to place him on the radar.  Afaik he didn't form any intimate/sexual relationships with men or women.  It is said he was asexual but most people aren't asexual.  If they were the human race would soon become extinct!

Anyway back to Robin Bain the problem is similar in that RB was said to be a God fearing man, missionary, strong Presbyterian, scout leader, school teacher and therefore in the eyes of many this puts him above reproach which I simply don't buy into.  Numerous witnesses came forward to testify that his daughter, Laniet, was involved in an incestuous relationship with her father.  If this is true it seems it started when she was below the age of consent.  Also a witness came forward saying his other daughter, Arawa, had told her RB introduced her to a sexual practice at the age of 10.  The question I would like answered is was Robin Bain a paedophile?  If he sexually abused his daughters did it remain there or did he seek out opportunities elsewhere?  Was PNG the sort of place that would present such opportunities?  Again not nice to point the figure when the man is unable to answer and defend himself.

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible based on the above and the reason DB was spared is that he went to bed early for his paper round and was not privy to Laniet's disclosures.  Perhaps it wasn't just Laniet's disclosures but Arawa's too.  Maybe Margaret Bain suspected hence her referring to her husband as the Devil and banishing him to an outside caravan.   

Samson I am surprised the Baines did not come to the attention of social services or whatever you call them in NZ?  Surely the state of 65 Every Street was enough to alert most something was seriously amiss?  Judge Callinan said police officers had to wear masks at time due to the smell  8)><(  He questioned how anyone willingly lived there and thought the occupants had become desensitised to their surroundings.
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Samson

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #214 on: September 13, 2017, 04:13:46 PM »
Holly there are many different lifestyles in NZ as no doubt everywhere, and no one interferes, which is as it should be. They were all essentially adults except Stephen, free to move.

Robin Bain killed his family, then because David was out he left a note of regret to David on the computer just before shooting himself. Joe Karam proved all this, nothing will ever change these facts. Lamenting Robin's ability to speak out is somewhat circular. He never meant to screw David's life so comprehensively, but it was incest, corroborated by several witnesses who could not testify. David has been kind to his father by never using it to defend himself.

Here is a post I put to kiwi blog.

In this verbatim extract from Kim Hill's interview with Ian Binnie, he demonstrates that Judith Collins did not read his report, and that Michael Guest and John Pike might  be deemed to have violated their duty to New Zealand courts. What Judith Collins did was an unspeakable outrage, she must be voted from office for this, and be seen to have ruled herself from any position that can do further damage to New Zealand's international reputation.
In the rest of the interview Binnie shows total command of the science, logistics and motivations in the mass murder suicide by Robin Bain.
Maybe someone will be civilised enough to GENERALLY DEBATE matters in this interview and the concerns I have just outlined. Ideally the three he accuses of deceit will answer his specific allegations publicly some day, because they will never disappear.

KH:
Right.. and you wrote up your report, and you sent it off, what was the first inkling you got, that the government or the minister was unhappy with it.
IB:
I had some inkling beforehand that the minister was a sort of Law and Order character and she was not going to be pleased with my view, the first contact I had, I was summonsed - I was in Cairo at the time, to come to Auckland to meet with the Minister,
KH:
This is Judith Collins now..
IB:
Yes Judith Collins, and I had a 15 minute meeting, which meant I’d spent about an hour in an aeroplane for every minute I had with the Minister, I had the very clear impression she had not read my report.
She certainly knew what the bottom line was, and she had a briefing note, which I had been given beforehand, which set out three points, those are the only points that she touched on, and when I responded, one of them was this thing about Michael Guest, er, Michael Guest says he’s guilty.
KH:
Michael Guest is a lawyer?
IB:
Michael Guest is the original defence lawyer, and defence lawyers aren’t very happy when a client spends 13yrs in jail, and is then acquitted by the Privy Council - why the minister would attach importance to what Michael Guest said, is beyond me, but the minister did not seem to realise,
KH:
But hang on, you’re saying Michael Guest is a defence lawyer right?
IB:
Yep.
KH:
So why would a defence lawyer feel obliged to say that David Bain is now guilty are you suggesting that because someone else has found him innocent, he’s aggrieved?
IB:
No no what Im suggesting is that there's a certain level of professional embarrassment if you have unsuccessfully defended  somebody... it makes you feel better in the end if they’re guilty anyway.
KH:
Alright I understand... yep.
IB:
My point is this, that when I replied to the ministers point about Michael Guest has sent me an email that David Bain is guilty, I mean there was zero registration on the face of the minister, (long pause) that I had even dealt with this in my report. And in fact what she
was telling me, I had already ACCEPTED in the report in black and white, I said on this point, I said I accept what Michael Guest said, the minister didn’t seem to realise that.
KH:
By which you deduce that she did not read the report.
IB:
Well there were a number of items er.. for example she has one or another of her points had to do with Sir Thomas Thorpe, who had interviewed David Bain, who really concluded that his application for clemency shouldn’t go anywhere because... er there was nothing to it - well of course a few years later the Privy Council said yes! theres a lot! Theres a lot here and theres a real problem with this case and we are quashing the convictions not as technical miscarriages of justice but the word they used was this has been an ACTUAL miscarriage of justice.
So how one can leap-frog back over the Privy Council to ’Tommy Thorpe’ she called him, years before and say well look what Tommy Thorpe says, suggests that she had no grip of anything that had gone on, ah in between, all of which was in my report.
KH:
It seems that Judith Collins told Dr Robert Fisher that she believed that there were significant problems with your report I wonder, how she concluded that.. have you any ideas?
IB:
Yes I have no doubt at all that the prosecutors John Pike and er, his colleague, had been with the Bain case for years, they were very heavily committed to the prosecution they had gone to the Privy Council - lost at the Privy Council, had gone into this 12 week re-trial, lost at the retrial. they didn’t want to give up! There is no way Judith Collins could have prepared that letter of instruction, I think it came straight from the prosecutors and she signed off, and away we went.



Offline Samson

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #215 on: September 13, 2017, 04:21:20 PM »
Samson. David Bain is in an unenviable position.  His retrial found him not guilty yet the recent judge led government report would appear to question this verdict.

The suspicious evidence and the government report aside, the actions of David Bain following the initial call to police were extremely suspicious and not in the least consistent with innocence. That said, what enduring piece of evidence in your view proves his innocent?
Behaviour after tragedy causes immense trouble for people, they just can't grasp that all behaviour CAN be construed as odd
The single data point I keep repeating, the plan the crown contends, needed a one shot suicide compatible trajectory for completion. This is what the crime scene shows, BUT YOU CAN"T PLAN THIS.
I keep saying it. Robin was fresh and awake, and compliance is impossible to expect.
I say the same of Jeremy Bamber.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #216 on: September 13, 2017, 06:51:35 PM »
Holly there are many different lifestyles in NZ as no doubt everywhere, and no one interferes, which is as it should be. They were all essentially adults except Stephen, free to move.
SNIP

Sure if the lifestyles don't involve breaking the law and/or pose serious risks to others.  If Laniet's claims, as told by witnesses, are true then she was sexually abused by her father.  The same for Arawa who it is claimed told a friend her father introduced her to a sexual practice when she was 10.  If the claims are true it is child sexual abuse and RB was a paedophile.   

The educational psychologist who interviewed the family in PNG highlighted the children running around naked and wild with the Bain home in an unspeakably chaotic and dirty mess.  MB was home schooling the children in PNG. When they arrived back in NZ at a mainstream school they struggled to read and write and were way behind their peers. 

I rather think if this was a low socio-economic family they would be on radars.  As the Bains were considered middle class, professional and religious it seems the parents had free rein, anything went and they were untouchable.

Then we have the outcome: 4 murders, a suicide and as you said DB's life comprehensively screwed.  Did this just happen overnight on a whim?  No it was a grossly dysfunctional family that had teetered on the edge for many years and the warning signs were there.

We have the exact same situation in JB's case.  June Bamber had a nervous breakdown in 1955 over her inability to conceive birth children.  This obviously didn't prevent her being approved as a suitable adopter for SC in 1957.  In 1959 June suffered depression as a result of her decision to adopt.  She required in-patient psychiatric treatment and electroconvulsive therapy.  She was allowed to keep SC and approved to adopt JB in 1961.  SC and JB were looked after by nannies and then sent off to boarding school.  By all accounts relationships were strained especially between SC and June.  There's now much scientific evidence showing where babies fail to form attachments with caregivers they are at risk for all the sorts of problems experienced by SC.  In fact a recent study has shown a correlation between adults with poor attachment styles and filicide.

http://www.scie-socialcareonline.org.uk/mothers-who-murdered-their-child-an-attachment-based-study-on-filicide/r/a1CG0000003YPZHMA4 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6891.msg295342#msg295342

On the surface the Bambers appeared ideal adopters: affluent, Christians, middle class but in reality they were anything but suitable.       
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 06:53:51 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #217 on: September 14, 2017, 04:32:14 PM »
SNIP

Here is a post I put to kiwi blog.

In this verbatim extract from Kim Hill's interview with Ian Binnie, he demonstrates that Judith Collins did not read his report, and that Michael Guest and John Pike might  be deemed to have violated their duty to New Zealand courts. What Judith Collins did was an unspeakable outrage, she must be voted from office for this, and be seen to have ruled herself from any position that can do further damage to New Zealand's international reputation.
In the rest of the interview Binnie shows total command of the science, logistics and motivations in the mass murder suicide by Robin Bain.
Maybe someone will be civilised enough to GENERALLY DEBATE matters in this interview and the concerns I have just outlined. Ideally the three he accuses of deceit will answer his specific allegations publicly some day, because they will never disappear.

SNIP

Has the minister for children/families (or whatever he/she is referred to in NZ) been involved?  If not why not?

- When the Bain children returned to NZ they were way behind their peers academically having been home
schooled by MB in PNG.
- Laniet's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- Laniet working in the sex industry.
- Laniet smoking cannabis.  Not in itself a big deal but was she using it as a form of escapism? 
- Arawa's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- SB (14 yoa) in trouble with the law (according to MVB).  No idea what the offence(s) were?
- The physical state of 65 ES: chaotic, dilapidated, dirty and unhygenic to the point most would regard it as indicative of deeper problems with the parents allowing the place to get into such a state rather than simply a lifestyle choice. 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #218 on: September 14, 2017, 04:45:42 PM »
Has the minister for children/families (or whatever he/she is referred to in NZ) been involved?  If not why not?

- When the Bain children returned to NZ they were way behind their peers academically having been home
schooled by MB in PNG.
- Laniet's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- Laniet working in the sex industry.
- Laniet smoking cannabis.  Not in itself a big deal but was she using it as a form of escapism? 
- Arawa's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- SB (14 yoa) in trouble with the law (according to MVB).  No idea what the offence(s) were?
- The physical state of 65 ES: chaotic, dilapidated, dirty and unhygenic to the point most would regard it as indicative of deeper problems with the parents allowing the place to get into such a state rather than simply a lifestyle choice.

Samson lets assume RB was of no particular faith and worked in a warehouse with MB a cashier in a local convenience store and all lived in council accommodation.  Do you think the Bain parents and their children would still have fallen under the radar?
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Samson

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #219 on: September 15, 2017, 12:11:50 AM »
Has the minister for children/families (or whatever he/she is referred to in NZ) been involved?  If not why not?

- When the Bain children returned to NZ they were way behind their peers academically having been home
schooled by MB in PNG.
- Laniet's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- Laniet working in the sex industry.
- Laniet smoking cannabis.  Not in itself a big deal but was she using it as a form of escapism? 
- Arawa's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- SB (14 yoa) in trouble with the law (according to MVB).  No idea what the offence(s) were?
- The physical state of 65 ES: chaotic, dilapidated, dirty and unhygenic to the point most would regard it as indicative of deeper problems with the parents allowing the place to get into such a state rather than simply a lifestyle choice.
The judicial and police line has always been that the incest allegations were fabricated, this suits the prosecution of David Bain, which effectively continues to this day after Judith Collins defrauded David of his compensation. It is so grotesque she is still suggested as a future National Party leader. She is a poisonous swine in lip stick.
She was sacked and reinstated as a cabinet minister, it is a national disgrace.
Families do not get killed without a motive. It is hard to conceive a more classic motive than pending social humiliation and possible police action against Robin.
It is what happened.
Similarly, the plan to take her children from her was playing with fire with Sheila Caffel.

Offline Samson

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #220 on: September 15, 2017, 12:17:21 AM »
Samson lets assume RB was of no particular faith and worked in a warehouse with MB a cashier in a local convenience store and all lived in council accommodation.  Do you think the Bain parents and their children would still have fallen under the radar?
In New Zealand there is grinding poverty in the Maori community, by the time this and meth is dealt with there is no attention paid to middle class families.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #221 on: September 15, 2017, 10:04:18 AM »
The judicial and police line has always been that the incest allegations were fabricated, this suits the prosecution of David Bain, which effectively continues to this day after Judith Collins defrauded David of his compensation. It is so grotesque she is still suggested as a future National Party leader. She is a poisonous swine in lip stick.
She was sacked and reinstated as a cabinet minister, it is a national disgrace.
Families do not get killed without a motive. It is hard to conceive a more classic motive than pending social humiliation and possible police action against Robin.
It is what happened.
Similarly, the plan to take her children from her was playing with fire with Sheila Caffel.

A lot of historic cases of child sexual abuse involve children not being listened to.  In Laniet's case numerous unconnected witnesses came forward.  A further unconnected witnesses came forward claiming Arawa had discussed her father introducing her to a sexual practice.  By unconnected I mean the various witnesses were unknown to each other. 

I still think the relevant authorities should have looked into the backgrounds from a child welfare perspective as opposed to just judicial: RB v DB.
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline John

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #222 on: September 20, 2017, 04:27:16 PM »
Behaviour after tragedy causes immense trouble for people, they just can't grasp that all behaviour CAN be construed as odd
The single data point I keep repeating, the plan the crown contends, needed a one shot suicide compatible trajectory for completion. This is what the crime scene shows, BUT YOU CAN"T PLAN THIS.
I keep saying it. Robin was fresh and awake, and compliance is impossible to expect.
I say the same of Jeremy Bamber.

I repeat, his behaviour prior to the attendance of police was bizarre and most certainly NOT WHAT ONE WOULD EXPECT FROM AN INNOCENT PERSON who had just found their entire family murdered.

I don't buy it and neither did the forensic experts. If the case was as cut and dried as you suggest it wouldn't have attracted such continuing debate all these years later with the country still split down the middle as to what really happened.



An ESR forensic scientist says Robin Bain's head wound was more likely to have resulted from a shot fired from a distance than a shot fired in a suicide scenario.

Kevan Walsh told the David Bain retrial in the High Court in Christchurch today he conducted test firings in 1997 with the murder rifle on pork skin and also viewed the photographs taken of Robin Bain's head wound.

Although the wound "may well" be a contact wound, with someone holding the muzzle of the gun against the left temple, his viewing of the photographs led him to his opinion it was more likely Robin Bain was shot at a distance beyond 200mm.

He said Robin's wound had less soot around its margins than would be expected with a contact wound and given the direction of the bullet the blackening around the wound could be bullet wipe (the bullet cleaning itself on the skin surface).

He had not seen tearing in the wound which would be expected from a contact shot because gas went into the entry hole.

David Bain, 37, is charged with shooting his parents and three siblings on 20 June, 1994, using a .22 semi automatic rifle.

The assertion Robin Bain shot his family and then himself with a close contact shot to his left temple is central to the defence's theory.

Walsh said he had also conducted test firings of the rifle to study the ejection pattern of bullet shells. His tests showed a shell ejected from a shot fired where Robin Bain's body was found was most likely to have hit curtains near the body but could also have gone through a gap in the curtain or under it.

The evidence refers to the finding of a spent .22 shell in a computer alcove on the other side of the curtains to where Robin's body was found. The shell is said to support the Crown theory that David Bain was hiding behind the curtains when he shot his father at a short distance.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2342142/Bain-trial-Robin-Bains-head-wound
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 04:43:17 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.