Author Topic: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?  (Read 1686 times)

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Online G-Unit

When Sir Michael Fallon resigned he suggested that his behaviour would have been seen as acceptable 10-15 years ago. Acceptable to whom though? The journalist he touched threatened to punch him at the time, so it wasn't acceptable to her.

On the first day of my first job aged 15 I was instructed by the older girl in the office never to go into the manager's office alone. She also told me that I should go with her if he called her into his office. That was in 1959.
There was no-one we could complain to and if we had we would have been patted on the head and told to keep on running.

Fifteen years ago I was working for an international oil company and the idea that a manager might behave like the one in 1959 did never entered my head. Times had changed and everyone in that workplace was treated with professionalism and respect. Anyone behaving badly towards a colleague would have been in big trouble.

This culture change seems to have been missed by some of our elected representatives in Westminster. Women working there thought it was necessary to warn each other just like my colleague warned me almost 60 years earlier.

I think MP's are elected to represent the interests of both men and women. Fallon appears to disregard the opinion of the woman he groped, which makes him unfit for purpose in my opinion.



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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2017, 12:04:03 PM »
The years have been kind G-unit.  You're looking good on it.

These women need to seriously get a life.  If they can't handle some pompous ol letch like Fallon they should forget politics.

Are we really to believe that men don't experience unwanted attention sexual or otherwise?

A man forcing himself on a woman ie sexual assault/rape is something quite different but wandering hands and suggestive comments professional women should be able to handle letting the man know in no uncertain terms it stops then and there or there will be consequences.

Strange how none of these women seem to have set the guy up and recorded such encounters on phones?

I wonder about all these attractive women sucking up to fat, ugly men like Weinstein in the first place.  Same as old wrinklies like Jagger et al.

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Pele In A Skirt....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbxluAF1mw

2018 Radio 1 Ibiza Prom with DJ Pete Tong, Jules Buckley and The Heritage Orchestra...enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs3BXVTF7mw

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2017, 02:02:23 PM »
The years have been kind G-unit.  You're looking good on it.

These women need to seriously get a life.  If they can't handle some pompous ol letch like Fallon they should forget politics.

Are we really to believe that men don't experience unwanted attention sexual or otherwise?

A man forcing himself on a woman ie sexual assault/rape is something quite different but wandering hands and suggestive comments professional women should be able to handle letting the man know in no uncertain terms it stops then and there or there will be consequences.

Strange how none of these women seem to have set the guy up and recorded such encounters on phones?

I wonder about all these attractive women sucking up to fat, ugly men like Weinstein in the first place.  Same as old wrinklies like Jagger et al.

Some of the women did deal with it, which is why they are still in their jobs. Others may have left because they found it too much. My points are; why did they have to deal with such behaviour in the workplace in this day and age, and can someone with such attitudes to women truly represent their interests in Parliament?
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2017, 04:11:25 PM »
Some of the women did deal with it, which is why they are still in their jobs. Others may have left because they found it too much. My points are; why did they have to deal with such behaviour in the workplace in this day and age, and can someone with such attitudes to women truly represent their interests in Parliament?

If women at Westminster find the likes of Fallon too hot to handle then I would suggest the rough n tumble of politics isn't for them.  I'm not condoning the likes of Fallon but what do we have so far: an unwanted hand on a knee and some lewd comment?  The woman concerned, Julia Hartley-Brewer, is hardly a shrinking violet.

At the end of the day it's abuse of power in the workplace which can take many forms.  Only good corporate governance can root this sort of thing out. I would be far more concerned about someone suffering intimidation in the workplace where there's a real mismatch of power.

Maybe the national curriculum needs to cover assertiveness training and such like.

Is Fallon just a dirty old man or what?  If the former does it mean he's incapable of representing women in parliament?     

 

Pele In A Skirt....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbxluAF1mw

2018 Radio 1 Ibiza Prom with DJ Pete Tong, Jules Buckley and The Heritage Orchestra...enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs3BXVTF7mw

Online Eleanor

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2017, 04:34:51 PM »

I think it's hilarious.  How long before Britain gets a Statute of Limitations on Historic Sex abuse, and The Accused remain anonymous unless proven Guilty?

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2017, 06:01:34 PM »
If women at Westminster find the likes of Fallon too hot to handle then I would suggest the rough n tumble of politics isn't for them.  I'm not condoning the likes of Fallon but what do we have so far: an unwanted hand on a knee and some lewd comment?  The woman concerned, Julia Hartley-Brewer, is hardly a shrinking violet.

At the end of the day it's abuse of power in the workplace which can take many forms.  Only good corporate governance can root this sort of thing out. I would be far more concerned about someone suffering intimidation in the workplace where there's a real mismatch of power.

Maybe the national curriculum needs to cover assertiveness training and such like.

Is Fallon just a dirty old man or what?  If the former does it mean he's incapable of representing women in parliament?     

 

I have old fashioned attitudes in some areas. I found the idea that a man having sex with a drunken woman was guilty of rape quite wrong. Expecting a man to judge whether a woman is too drunk to know her own mind was a step too far imo.

This one needs assertiveness training it seems, or did she just need her job;

‘He took me to Soho and gave me the money to buy two vibrators. He stood outside the shop while I did. He said one was for his wife and the other was for a woman who worked in his constituency office.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5027709/Brexit-Minister-Mark-Garnier-sent-PA-buy-sex-toys.html#ixzz4xUGW1PVH
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Offline puglove

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2017, 11:59:14 PM »
Oh ffs. There is a massive difference between being sexually violated and having a fit of the vapours because a sad, balding, inadequate knobhead rubs your knee, calls you a "spirited filly" and tells you that his wife doesn't understand him. When did professional women become so weak and whiny? There are far worse things in life than a silly, randy man making an appointment that his willy can't keep.

When I was 16 I worked in a jewellery factory, there was an amazing cross-section of people there and it was a real eye-opener. 3 lovely, middle-aged ladies were in charge of packing...Eunice, Joyce and Joan. No man under the age of  60 left that department unscathed, they were lucky if they came out with their trousers still up and not smothered in 3 different shades of lipstick. And Gawd help a young bloke who innocently brought some parcels in and was due to get married. What those game old birds could do with bubble wrap and duct tape had to be seen to be believed.

There was an old woman called P@
Who worshipped a murdering tw@
She typed all day long
Getting everything wrong
Then her pussyc@ sh@ in her h@.

Offline puglove

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 12:29:54 AM »
And.... $6(&.....

I have to say.... from when I was 11, I was involved with showjumping, eventing and dressage. We ALL knew that most trainers, teachers and grooms were deeply dodgy. If you got caught once in the corner of a stable, shame on them. If you were silly enough to get caught again.....

I KNOW it was awful, and it shouldn't have happened, but it did. You only have to remember what was on TV at the time...Benny Hill, Hallo Cheeky, The Sweeney, Rising Damp....it was just accepted. Sexism and racism. We weren't such pissy-willies in those days. Now, apparently, we have to swoon away in a dead faint if a hairy, horrible man buys you a frappylappychino. If that's a thing.

Shouldn't we all be more worried about Trump grabbing pussies and hovering his fat, orange finger over the button?   

 &%54%
There was an old woman called P@
Who worshipped a murdering tw@
She typed all day long
Getting everything wrong
Then her pussyc@ sh@ in her h@.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 03:37:53 PM »
Oh ffs. There is a massive difference between being sexually violated and having a fit of the vapours because a sad, balding, inadequate knobhead rubs your knee, calls you a "spirited filly" and tells you that his wife doesn't understand him. When did professional women become so weak and whiny? There are far worse things in life than a silly, randy man making an appointment that his willy can't keep.

When I was 16 I worked in a jewellery factory, there was an amazing cross-section of people there and it was a real eye-opener. 3 lovely, middle-aged ladies were in charge of packing...Eunice, Joyce and Joan. No man under the age of  60 left that department unscathed, they were lucky if they came out with their trousers still up and not smothered in 3 different shades of lipstick. And Gawd help a young bloke who innocently brought some parcels in and was due to get married. What those game old birds could do with bubble wrap and duct tape had to be seen to be believed.

Most of those guys given the choice "This afternoon you can take this gear to Eunice in the packing dept or you can sit on top of the boiler [heating boiler that is] for three hours" would opt for sitting on the heating
boiler. The sad part is that the Eunices Joyces and Joans of this world were probably best mates with the mothers of some of their victims.
Engineering blue was a popular tool [if you will forgive the expression] in some places.
Do people really use expressions like "spirited filly" these days? It  sounds like from the same era and class as women who call men "chaps". There are some dodgy "chaps" and "fillies" about learn to spot them and take appropriate action.

"A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so".
We shall now have tea and speak of absurdities.

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2017, 06:16:02 AM »
I remember the women in the cotton mills. Young men just leaving school were terrified of them, but it wasn't an abuse of power. I learned to stick up for myself like most older women did because we had to. The prevailing opinion in my young days was still the 'men can't control themselves' one. If they misbehaved the 'temptress' in the short skirt got the blame, right up to gang rape. I remember a case where some soldiers raped a girl who was daft enough to go into the barracks with one of them. She got the blame for entering the 'lion's den' as it were and they got off.

Some on here still seem to think these men are just sad pathetic dirty old men. I think if they have power in the workplace and use it to sexually harass women they are deliberately and cynically abusing their power for their own ends. They know it too, that's why they're resigning.
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2017, 12:26:48 PM »
I remember the women in the cotton mills. Young men just leaving school were terrified of them, but it wasn't an abuse of power. I learned to stick up for myself like most older women did because we had to. The prevailing opinion in my young days was still the 'men can't control themselves' one. If they misbehaved the 'temptress' in the short skirt got the blame, right up to gang rape. I remember a case where some soldiers raped a girl who was daft enough to go into the barracks with one of them. She got the blame for entering the 'lion's den' as it were and they got off.

Some on here still seem to think these men are just sad pathetic dirty old men. I think if they have power in the workplace and use it to sexually harass women they are deliberately and cynically abusing their power for their own ends. They know it too, that's why they're resigning.

How do you know the young men were "terrified"?  And who determines what is genuinely a 'terrifying' experience and what isn't eg an irrational fear, anxiety disorder etc? 

I think we all agree anything that constitutes a criminal offence eg sexual assault or rape should be dealt with by the full force of the law.  However with regard to the likes of Fallon we're not talking about anything criminal are we?  We're talking invading personal space and lewd comments?  Julia Brewer-Hartley accused Fallon of repeatedly putting a hand on her knee during dinner.  Andrea Leadsom apparently said in Fallons presence she had cold hands and he said he knew where she could put them to warm them up!  He also put his arm around her.  I started working in financial services in the late 80's which was, and still is, a very male dominated industry.  Apart from support staff I was the only female working in operations.  In the winter I would always complain the office was too cold and can't recall the number of times a male said 'I'll warm you up' or the like.  Frankly it didn't even register.  In the end one of the managers arranged for a portable heater to be placed around my work station to prevent arguments about the air conditioning. 

The likes of Julia Brewer-Hartley and Andrea Leadsom are amongst the best educated women in the world, influential and with levels of income way above the average.  Frankly they are a complete embarrassment.  To have these sorts of people whinging about having their personal space invaded and lewd comments is an absolute disgrace when there are real victims of  sexual abuse out there who they claim to represent:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11057647/Rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-1400-children-exploited-by-Asian-gangs-while-authorities-turned-a-blind-eye.html

If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 12:29:15 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Pele In A Skirt....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbxluAF1mw

2018 Radio 1 Ibiza Prom with DJ Pete Tong, Jules Buckley and The Heritage Orchestra...enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs3BXVTF7mw

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2017, 04:03:11 PM »
How do you know the young men were "terrified"?  And who determines what is genuinely a 'terrifying' experience and what isn't eg an irrational fear, anxiety disorder etc? 

I think we all agree anything that constitutes a criminal offence eg sexual assault or rape should be dealt with by the full force of the law.  However with regard to the likes of Fallon we're not talking about anything criminal are we?  We're talking invading personal space and lewd comments?  Julia Brewer-Hartley accused Fallon of repeatedly putting a hand on her knee during dinner.  Andrea Leadsom apparently said in Fallons presence she had cold hands and he said he knew where she could put them to warm them up!  He also put his arm around her.  I started working in financial services in the late 80's which was, and still is, a very male dominated industry.  Apart from support staff I was the only female working in operations.  In the winter I would always complain the office was too cold and can't recall the number of times a male said 'I'll warm you up' or the like.  Frankly it didn't even register.  In the end one of the managers arranged for a portable heater to be placed around my work station to prevent arguments about the air conditioning. 

The likes of Julia Brewer-Hartley and Andrea Leadsom are amongst the best educated women in the world, influential and with levels of income way above the average.  Frankly they are a complete embarrassment.  To have these sorts of people whinging about having their personal space invaded and lewd comments is an absolute disgrace when there are real victims of  sexual abuse out there who they claim to represent:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11057647/Rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-1400-children-exploited-by-Asian-gangs-while-authorities-turned-a-blind-eye.html

If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes.

Are you a woman? Your utter disregard of a woman's right to be treated with respect is suggesting otherwise. In fact you are now making sexist comments.

If someone upsets a work colleague by making sexist remarks or touching them a well-run company will investigate. Sanctions can go as far as dismissal. The injured party can take both the company and the offender to an employment tribunal and further sanctions can be imposed.

So this is not a bit of fun which women should be expected to shake off and ignore, it's right up there with racial and religious discrimination.  Some women may invite it, some may find it funny, some may choose to shrug it off, but for those who find it upsetting redress should be available. No-one has the right to tell these women to 'stick to baking'. That comment is the equivalent of telling them not to worry 'their pretty little heads' about it.
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2017, 05:16:26 PM »
Are you a woman? Your utter disregard of a woman's right to be treated with respect is suggesting otherwise. In fact you are now making sexist comments.
May I suggest you read my post for gender confirmation.

I don't believe I have disregarded a woman's right to be treated with respect or that I've made any sexist comments.

I don't consider Fallons hand on knee, placing an arm around a shoulder or telling Leadsom he knows where she could put her hands to warm them up is anything other than banter.  Some people are simply tactile and one would have to gauge the situation to know whether this was the case with Fallon or whether he was trying it on.  If the women objected then surely all they had to do was tell him then and there and not make a big song and dance decades later?  You might recall the Oz Pm and some official from Canada broke royal protocol by placing an arm around the queen.  Were these men being deliberately disrespectful or simply wanting to ease the Queen's path?  Did the Queen make a big song and dance?   

If someone upsets a work colleague by making sexist remarks or touching them a well-run company will investigate. Sanctions can go as far as dismissal. The injured party can take both the company and the offender to an employment tribunal and further sanctions can be imposed.

First of all we need clear definitions of where lines are broken.  From what I know of the Fallon/Brewer-Hartley/Leadsom I don't believe any lines were broken or such a case would be capable of going before an employment tribunal. 

So this is not a bit of fun which women should be expected to shake off and ignore, it's right up there with racial and religious discrimination.  Some women may invite it, some may find it funny, some may choose to shrug it off, but for those who find it upsetting redress should be available. No-one has the right to tell these women to 'stick to baking'. That comment is the equivalent of telling them not to worry 'their pretty little heads' about it.

Seriously if women such as Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom are so offended by Fallon's behaviour then I would suggest they never leave their respective homes. 

Surely you can see the difference between what these women are complaining about and a vulnerable women in the workplace who is threatened with losing her job, bonus, promotion etc if she doesn't grant sexual favours to a male colleague in a position of influence?  Worse still suffers some sort of sexual assault eg breasts touched, hand up skirt? 
 
Pele In A Skirt....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbxluAF1mw

2018 Radio 1 Ibiza Prom with DJ Pete Tong, Jules Buckley and The Heritage Orchestra...enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs3BXVTF7mw

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 11:18:32 PM »
A sexist comment;
"
"If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes."

Suggesting that women should deal with or accept certain bad behaviour is the kind of argument used by men who approve of or indulge in such behaviour. They behave badly and then accuse an offended woman of being over sensitive because it was 'only banter'. It's not like they raped anyone, is it?

The blame doesn't lie at the women's door. it lies at the door if men who think they can sexually harass women and get away with it. The solution is for men to stop, not for women to devise strategies to deal with it.

This article explains what I'm trying to say;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/sexual-harassment-consent-metropolitan-liberal-men

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