Author Topic: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?  (Read 1500 times)

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Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2017, 01:21:10 PM »
A sexist comment;
"
"If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes."

Suggesting that women should deal with or accept certain bad behaviour is the kind of argument used by men who approve of or indulge in such behaviour. They behave badly and then accuse an offended woman of being over sensitive because it was 'only banter'. It's not like they raped anyone, is it?

The blame doesn't lie at the women's door. it lies at the door if men who think they can sexually harass women and get away with it. The solution is for men to stop, not for women to devise strategies to deal with it.

This article explains what I'm trying to say;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/sexual-harassment-consent-metropolitan-liberal-men

I absolutely do not accept that Fallon putting a hand on Brewer-Hartley's knee or his arm around Leadsom's shoulder could in any way, shape or form be regarded as sexual harassment or even bad behaviour.  Even Brewer-Hartley herself agrees:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/michael-fallon-quit-over-kneegate-11453218

Take a look at these images of a recent Vogue bash to celebrate the incoming editor: Edward Enninful.  Lots of touchy stuff going on:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5059653/British-Vogue-editor-Edward-Enninful-starry-dinner.html?ITO=1490

Are all these people going to complain years later they were touched inappropriately?  How is this different from Fallon putting his hand on Brewer Hartley's knee during dinner at a Tory bash?   The whole thing is a nonsense.  Day after day the news is full of genuine horror stories: acid attacks, murder, paedophillia, rape, wars etc, etc.  The likes of Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom deserve nothing than contempt imo. 

You seem convinced that it's all one way too?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5061999/Mariah-Carey-s-former-security-guard-threatens-sue-her.html
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2017, 02:01:20 PM »
Re your Guardian article here's Polly Toynbee's take:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/nov/03/polly-toynbee-on-sexual-harassment-video

If you want sexist comment please refer to PT's comments re Spearmint Rhino and 'lads' nights out.  PT thinks once men view such shows they are unable to distinguish between the women who feature in these shows and women elsewhere.  Not true imo.  She fails to recognise that just as many women have 'girly' nights out featuring male strippers and the like:

https://www.dreammen.co.uk/index.html

Imo for every badly behaved man there's a badly behaved woman.  When I say badly behaved I mean generally including sexually, personal boundaries, aggressive behaviour etc.  I think its a terrible thing to generalise and is akin to saying all Muslims are terrorists.  As I said up thread I worked in a very male dominated industry for nearly 25 years and never experienced any problems.  I don't believe I look like the back end of a bus either.     
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2017, 05:15:52 PM »
Polly Toynbee says, like me, that attitudes need to change. Trivialising this kind of behaviour is how these men excuse it. The minute a woman complains she's oversensitive, she can't take a joke, she's making a mountain out of a molehill etc. It's manipulative and it's designed to let them carry on behaving badly. When women agree with them it just shows how deeply they've managed to embed their attitudes in our societies.
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Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2017, 07:04:09 PM »
Polly Toynbee says, like me, that attitudes need to change. Trivialising this kind of behaviour is how these men excuse it. The minute a woman complains she's oversensitive, she can't take a joke, she's making a mountain out of a molehill etc. It's manipulative and it's designed to let them carry on behaving badly. When women agree with them it just shows how deeply they've managed to embed their attitudes in our societies.

PT dismissed the "glamorous" claims and like me thinks the problems are the unglamorous claims that fall under the radar.  Eg vulnerable people working for small organisations on dodgy contracts with a lack of corporate governance/accountability. 

If Julia Brewer-Hartley was so offended Fallon placed his hand on her knee I'm surprised she seems keen on displaying her knees and her cleavage.  Frankly she looks a mess.  She looks unprofessional and carries too much weight to wear short skirts and low tops. 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 03:31:15 PM »
Meow! Let the woman with the perfect figure and the perfect outfit for every occasion cast her stone!

People employed by British MP's work in a very small workplace; an MP will usually have a staff of around four. They are employed by the MP, not by Parliament or the MP's party. It's not a career for life, obviously, if the MP loses their seat the staff are likely to lose their jobs. If the MP isn't satisfied with them another MP is unlikely to employ them either. Pretty precarious it seems to me.

We seem to have little common ground so I will finish by making my opinion very plain. My view is that every woman should be treated with respect no matter what size she is or what clothes she chooses to wear. As should every man. No-one should be treated in a way which makes them feel uncomfortable or victimised by anyone. When they are treated in that way the person who did it should be reprimanded.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2017, 11:23:09 PM »
It took me a while to find it but here it is:
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/29th-june-1996/10/another-voice

MATTHEW PARRIS
Stephen Glover is surely wrong (Politics, 22 June). The public interest claimed by the Daily Mail for its research into the pri- vate life of Polly Toynbee is not that the paper aimed to expose any significant inconsistency between what she preached and what she practised. It was the signifi- cant consistency they wanted to expose. In her writing she urges us not to feel shackled by the bonds of marriage, and in her own life (we learn) she has been conducting an affair with a married man*. No conflict here.

But it is not really Polly Toynbee who is my focus. The Mail's charge is the charge the press have made against MPs who use a public platform to defend the interests of causes, corporations, friends or relations in whose welfare they have an undeclared pri- vate interest. It is the indictment we make of the MP who speaks in the House in sup- port of the dignity and interests of the accountancy profession and fails to declare that he has a second job as an accountant. The indictment against Ms Toynbee was of this type: that of using her writing and broadcasting to legitimise lifestyles like her own. She should have declared her interest (it is argued), allowing her audience, should they so decide, to take her opinions with a pinch a salt.
The late Keith Waterhouse frequently referred to her as Polyanna.
* as I recall the mans wife complained about Polyanna using her column as a vehicle to criticise her(the wife).
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Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2017, 10:55:37 AM »
Meow! Let the woman with the perfect figure and the perfect outfit for every occasion cast her stone!

People employed by British MP's work in a very small workplace; an MP will usually have a staff of around four. They are employed by the MP, not by Parliament or the MP's party. It's not a career for life, obviously, if the MP loses their seat the staff are likely to lose their jobs. If the MP isn't satisfied with them another MP is unlikely to employ them either. Pretty precarious it seems to me.

We seem to have little common ground so I will finish by making my opinion very plain. My view is that every woman should be treated with respect no matter what size she is or what clothes she chooses to wear. As should every man. No-one should be treated in a way which makes them feel uncomfortable or victimised by anyone. When they are treated in that way the person who did it should be reprimanded.

You started up a thread entitled:

"The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?"

But it seems your mind was already made up and you were expecting others to share your views telling me you have little common ground with me so the debate is over! 

To be honest I find you all over the place with this and I've no real idea what your argument is.  I thought we were debating claims made by Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom and whether they justified Fallon's resignation.  IMO no the claims don't justify the resignation.  Given the recent furore in the Navy about inappropriate relationships amongst serving officers on ships I think Fallon as head of defence thought it was the appropriate thing to do.


I've asked several female friends for their views and they've all said words to the effect it will put an end to banter and harmless flirting  8(8-)).

I don't know much about the machinations of those employed by MP's but it doesn't seem anymore precarious to me than those employed in the so-called GIG economy?

You say every woman should be treated with respect but I don't understand why you're singling out women and excluding men/transgendered people?  As far as I'm concerned everyone deserves to be treated with respect in and out of the workplace but people need to take some responsibility and act appropriately which includes dressing appropriately for the occasion.  Dress sends out a message.  If a woman with a huge bust like Brewer-Hartley chooses to wear a very low neckline exposing a significant amount of breast and cleavage then it's going to distract some from her messages as a journalist/broadcaster.  It's common sense surely?  She seems to go out of her way to dress provocatively/sexually aggressive which is up to her when she's off duty but when she's on duty/primetime tv I would suggest most don't want to see some middle-aged woman's jugs filling their screen! 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 11:13:16 AM »
It took me a while to find it but here it is:
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/29th-june-1996/10/another-voice

MATTHEW PARRIS
Stephen Glover is surely wrong (Politics, 22 June). The public interest claimed by the Daily Mail for its research into the pri- vate life of Polly Toynbee is not that the paper aimed to expose any significant inconsistency between what she preached and what she practised. It was the signifi- cant consistency they wanted to expose. In her writing she urges us not to feel shackled by the bonds of marriage, and in her own life (we learn) she has been conducting an affair with a married man*. No conflict here.

But it is not really Polly Toynbee who is my focus. The Mail's charge is the charge the press have made against MPs who use a public platform to defend the interests of causes, corporations, friends or relations in whose welfare they have an undeclared pri- vate interest. It is the indictment we make of the MP who speaks in the House in sup- port of the dignity and interests of the accountancy profession and fails to declare that he has a second job as an accountant. The indictment against Ms Toynbee was of this type: that of using her writing and broadcasting to legitimise lifestyles like her own. She should have declared her interest (it is argued), allowing her audience, should they so decide, to take her opinions with a pinch a salt.
The late Keith Waterhouse frequently referred to her as Polyanna.
* as I recall the mans wife complained about Polyanna using her column as a vehicle to criticise her(the wife).

Richard Littlejohn from the DM refers to her as pole-dancing Polly!

I think the guy she was supposedly having an affair with, David Walker, is now her husband.  He also works for the Guardian so I'm assuming that's where they met.  If G-unit had her way this would probably never have happened as surely all relationships start with subtle flirting?  If one or other had misread the situation we could be reading claims of inappropriate behaviour at the most PC place in the land! 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2017, 01:06:44 PM »
I stop debating when it's clear that the person I'm debating with doesn't understand my points. Some of which
I thought were quite clear;

I was annoyed when a resigning government minister suggested that laying his uninvited hands on a woman would have been acceptable 5 or 10 years ago. it was never acceptable in my opinion.

I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully and that includes women of all shapes and sizes regardless of how they choose to dress. Are men wearing kilts inviting unwanted touching? Not in my opinion.

Harmless flirting does not, in my opinion, include laying uninvited hands on anyone. Neither does it include sending employees into sex shops to buy sex toys for their employer.
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Offline sadie

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2017, 12:37:11 AM »
I stop debating when it's clear that the person I'm debating with doesn't understand my points. Some of which
I thought were quite clear;

I was annoyed when a resigning government minister suggested that laying his uninvited hands on a woman would have been acceptable 5 or 10 years ago. it was never acceptable in my opinion.

I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully and that includes women of all shapes and sizes regardless of how they choose to dress. Are men wearing kilts inviting unwanted touching? Not in my opinion.

Harmless flirting does not, in my opinion, include laying uninvited hands on anyone. Neither does it include sending employees into sex shops to buy sex toys for their employer.
As someone who has several times suffered the wandering hands and also the rubbing of himself against me, i am glad to agree with you.  In those days I never said a word but suffered indignities silently.

Now I have the confidence, I would confront the man and publicly denounce him.  Hopefully shame him into never doing it again to another young woman


I still shed a tear occasionally, when I think of the effect that the bullying of one man had on me.  It may have been sexist rather than sexual, but it profoundly upset me.  I was about 19 at the time.

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2017, 11:56:57 AM »
As someone who has several times suffered the wandering hands and also the rubbing of himself against me, i am glad to agree with you.  In those days I never said a word but suffered indignities silently.

Now I have the confidence, I would confront the man and publicly denounce him.  Hopefully shame him into never doing it again to another young woman


I still shed a tear occasionally, when I think of the effect that the bullying of one man had on me.  It may have been sexist rather than sexual, but it profoundly upset me.  I was about 19 at the time.

Women's feelings were of no consequence in those days. Men had the power to do as they pleased and ignore or ridicule their victims if they complained. It's high time these men who live in the past caught up and realised times have changed. Some women need to grasp that also, in my opinion, rather than making excuses for these bullying leches.
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Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2017, 10:02:48 PM »
I stop debating when it's clear that the person I'm debating with doesn't understand my points. Some of which
I thought were quite clear;

I was annoyed when a resigning government minister suggested that laying his uninvited hands on a woman would have been acceptable 5 or 10 years ago. it was never acceptable in my opinion.

I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully and that includes women of all shapes and sizes regardless of how they choose to dress. Are men wearing kilts inviting unwanted touching? Not in my opinion.

Harmless flirting does not, in my opinion, include laying uninvited hands on anyone. Neither does it include sending employees into sex shops to buy sex toys for their employer.

I think you became frustrated because I don't share your views.

You're deviating from the facts; Fallon put a hand not "hands" on Brewer-Hartley's knee.

Brewer-Hartley is an Oxford educated polictical journalist.  Her purpose in life to enlighten us.  When presenting in a professional capacity why the need to wear sexually provocative clothing?  What's wrong with a little decorum?  The comparison between Brewer-Hartley and other female presenters is here for all to see:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8589.msg430180#msg430180

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5189385/One-ten-women-told-change-clothes-boss.html

Your analogy of a man wearing a kilt isn't imo a good one on the assumption the length is normal and conceals the man's tackle.  Suppose the kilt was short enought that part of his tackle was on display?  That's the comparison you need to to make with Brewer-Hartley's plunging neckline. 

How do you know Brewer-Hartley didn't go to the Tory bash 'dressed to kill' positioning her ample bosom in Fallon's face knowing the old fool would be putty in her hands and ripe for some hot Westminster gos.!?

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/political-journalist-melissa-kite-says-13877390
 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:11:52 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2017, 10:06:25 PM »
As someone who has several times suffered the wandering hands and also the rubbing of himself against me, i am glad to agree with you.  In those days I never said a word but suffered indignities silently.

Now I have the confidence, I would confront the man and publicly denounce him.  Hopefully shame him into never doing it again to another young woman


I still shed a tear occasionally, when I think of the effect that the bullying of one man had on me.  It may have been sexist rather than sexual, but it profoundly upset me.  I was about 19 at the time.

Sorry to hear this Sadie. 

From what you've said it seems your experience was very different to that of Brewer_Hartley in that Brewer-Hartley simply had a hand placed on her knee during a Tory dinner party.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:10:25 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2017, 10:09:59 PM »
Women's feelings were of no consequence in those days. Men had the power to do as they pleased and ignore or ridicule their victims if they complained. It's high time these men who live in the past caught up and realised times have changed. Some women need to grasp that also, in my opinion, rather than making excuses for these bullying leches.

For every unpleasant man now or yesteryear there was/is probably an unpleasant woman.  A case in point is probably that of Liam Allan.
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Online G-Unit

Re: The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposť?
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2017, 08:11:08 AM »
I think you became frustrated because I don't share your views.

You're deviating from the facts; Fallon put a hand not "hands" on Brewer-Hartley's knee.

Brewer-Hartley is an Oxford educated polictical journalist.  Her purpose in life to enlighten us.  When presenting in a professional capacity why the need to wear sexually provocative clothing?  What's wrong with a little decorum?  The comparison between Brewer-Hartley and other female presenters is here for all to see:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8589.msg430180#msg430180

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5189385/One-ten-women-told-change-clothes-boss.html

Your analogy of a man wearing a kilt isn't imo a good one on the assumption the length is normal and conceals the man's tackle.  Suppose the kilt was short enought that part of his tackle was on display?  That's the comparison you need to to make with Brewer-Hartley's plunging neckline. 

How do you know Brewer-Hartley didn't go to the Tory bash 'dressed to kill' positioning her ample bosom in Fallon's face knowing the old fool would be putty in her hands and ripe for some hot Westminster gos.!?

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/political-journalist-melissa-kite-says-13877390

No, I just accept I'm wasting my time discussing this issue with someone whose attitudes and understanding are so outdated.

Suggesting that women's choice of clothes makes them fair game is a very old-fashioned idea.
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