Author Topic: Witness Statements and Interpreters  (Read 24033 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2017, 09:56:22 AM »
Hi Rob,

Have a look at the flurry of correspondence here:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/interpreters.htm

02 Processos Vol IIPage 457
02 Processos Vol II Page 518
03 Processos Vol III Page 816 to 817

On 7 May, there's the authorization signed on behalf of the deputy prosecutor to communicate M's description, and another one naming a translator to translate it into English.

Another one (816) stating that the deputy prosecutor's office had named an interpreter, and they were still trying to get hold of another one.

In the midst of that correspondence is a request to the PJ to send in the names and addresses of the interpreters that the PJ had already used, and to get them to sign the oath thing and send that back within 48 hours.

As we know, the PJ started taking statements as of 4 May.

What's not clear is whether the DP's office had already provided a list, but simply didn't know which ones had been used for which statements thus far, or whether the PJ scrambled around with their own informal list of anyone they knew could speak English and the DP's office wanted the info to approve the names retroactively.

If the former, the DP's office would have got them to sign the oath form prior to letting them loose - which wasn't the case, therefore I tend to think the latter more likely.

If that is the case, I find that tends to support my initial chaos theory. ;) I've no idea what took the DP's office four days, but I guess they were busy organising other things as well, but with all the people who needed to be interviewed urgently, the PJ seems to have taken the pragmatic route - which I find totally understandable in the circumstances.

The only two names on that initial list that are familiar to me are Murat and Gaynor (and both are biligual). No idea whether the others were as well or simply had a working knowledge of English and happened to be available.
So that appears to be evidence the first few days of statements were not done by the book.  A regulation was quoted so it might be possible to see what it said in the legislation.
Robert Murat and Silvia are used again after this date so presumably they signed the No compromise statement.
"articles 92 nº 2 and 91 nº 1 of the CPP"

 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 10:07:01 AM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Carana

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2017, 10:26:28 AM »
So that appears to be evidence the first few days of statements were not done by the book.  A regulation was quoted so it might be possible to see what it said in the legislation.
Robert Murat and Silvia are used again after this date so presumably they signed the No compromise statement.
"articles 92 nº 2 and 91 nº 1 of the CPP"

"Compromisso" means swearing on oath, not the English meaning of a "compromise" at least not in context. False friend, IMO.

I presume that they did all sign the oath document at some point.

There's also a clause in the CPP about maintaining judicial secrecy. It could explain Murat then shying away from chatting to the media, which, unfortunately, seemed to make him suspicious in the eyes of some.


Offline Robittybob1

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2017, 10:43:09 AM »
CPP - file:///C:/Users/Robert/Downloads/rights-suspected-persons-country_pt.pdf

Article 91
Oath and commitment

1 - Witnesses take the following oath: “I swear, by my honour, to tell all truth and nothing but the truth”.

2 - Experts and interpreters render the following commitment, at any stage of the proceedings: “I undertake, by my honour, to faithfully perform the duties that are entrusted to me”.

3 - The oath mentioned in paragraph 1 above is taken before the competent judicial authority and the commitment provided for in the preceding paragraph is rendered before the competent judicial authority or criminal police authority, who previously advise  the concerned person on the penalties incurred upon refusal or failure to comply therewith.

4 - Refusal to take an oath or to render a commitment is equivalent to refusal to testify or to perform duties.

5 - The oath and the commitment, once taken and rendered, do not need to be renewed in the same stage of the same proceedings.

6 – The following individuals are not bound to take the oath or to render the commitment mentioned in the preceding paragraphs:

a) Minors under 16 years of age;

b) Any experts or interpreters who are public officials and intervene whilst performing their duties.

[Wording of Law 48/2007]


Here is a better result
" a) According to article 92 (2) of the Portuguese Code of Criminal Procedure2
(Código do
Processo Penal, CPP), whenever a person who does not fully understand the language of the
proceedings intervenes, it is mandatory that this person is assisted by a suitable interpreter that
is appointed free of charge, regardless of the knowledge the authority presiding the
hearing/questioning or any other participants in it have of the language the person heard
understands. Interpretation must be provided into the mother tongue of the person who does not
speak Portuguese, and only when not possible into another language that the person fully
understands. This right is not only of the defendant but also granted to any witness and victim.
As defined under article 92 (7) of the CPP, both the judicial authority (defined in article 1 b) of the
CPP – during the investigation stage of the proceedings, the public prosecutor or the examining
magistrate) and the criminal police authority (as defined combining article 1 c) and article 1 d) of
the CPP, and consisting of directors, officers, inspectors and subinspectors and all other police
staff of the police forces to whom a judicial authority or the CPP recognises such competence3
) in
charge shall nominate an interpreter whenever a person who does not speak the language of the
proceedings needs to be heard.
In the case of police questioning, the criminal police authority shall assess the need of
interpretation of the defendant and is responsible for nominating a suitable interpreter. However,
some criminal police authorities, in response to CESIS queries, said that they often request that
the judicial authority (namely the public prosecutor) indicates an interpreter, as the existent local informal lists are not in the possession of these criminal police authorities4 but within courts5
. The
information is therefore shared between these entities in an attempt to find a suitable interpreter.
b) There is no formal mechanism to ascertain if a person is in need of interpretation that the police
can resort to. Criteria is legally determined (article 92 (1) of the CPP), stating that an interpreter
will always be nominated to assist anyone who does not fully understand the language of the
proceedings (regardless of nationality), in every procedural act including the act of being held as
a defendant6
. The evaluation of interpretation needs is therefore empirically made by the police
officer. Nationality is considered an indicator and criminal police authorities’ practice7
is of asking
if the defendant wants the presence of an interpreter. The guidelines provided in the training of
police officers in all interviewed criminal police authorities is that, in case of doubt, an interpreter
shall be appointed, unless the defendant states that he or she is not in need of one, and that
statement needs to be written in the record of questioning, which is signed by the defendant..
In addiction, the presence of a legal counsel8
is mandatory for these defendants for any
participation in the proceedings (as determined by article 64 (1) d) of the CPP), except for the act
of being hold as a defendant (and other prior pre-procedural acts). However, any person who is held defendant will necessarily be put under statement of identity and residence9
. This is a
coercive measure that, contrary to all others, does not need to be ordered by a judge but is instead
by the public prosecutor or criminal authority police and is mandatory for every person that is hold
as a defendant. And it is in fact a constinuous act to that of holding someone as a defendant, for
which the presence of a legal counsel will again be mandatory if the defendant does not fully
understand the language of the proceedings10
.
In sum, unless it is obvious that the person does not understand the language at all, the police
practice seems to be that of asking if the defendant wishes to be assisted by an interpreter.
Training provides indication to name an interpreter everytime there is any doubt of the person’s
understanding of Portuguese. There is no checklist or other objective mechanism available other
than the criteria set in the law.
c) The State bears the cost of interpretation within the proceedings and at any stage. Article 162
(1) of the CPP ex vi article 92 (8) of the CPP, establishes that the authority that appointed the
interpreter shall be in charge of determining the amount of payment due. The exact amount is
determined considering the tables approved by the Ministry of Justice or, whenever lacking,
considering the fees normally paid for the same type of service (article 162 (1) of the CPP). This
decision (payment to the interpreter) can be appealed or, in the case of decision by the criminal
police authority or the public prosecutor, subject to hierarchical complaint (article 162 (3) of the
CPP).


Somewhere else in same document  "b) Do translators and
interpreters have to be
listed in
databases/registers for
their services to be used?
In other words, is
membership/registration
mandatory?
No These lists are not official and there are no requirements for an interpreter or
translator to be included in such lists other than being sworn interpreters or tranlators
(as established in article 91, paragraph 2 of the CPP). Also the law does not
distinguish between interpreters and translators, as it was thought for needs of
interpretation while intervening in procedural acts (when heard by an authority).
These are informal lists and not every court has one, therefore it is also not mandatory
to be a part of it to operate as a judicial interpreter or judicial translator. These lists
include both professional translators and interpreters as well as amateurs83
.
Both the PJ and the SEF mentioned that experience with these interpreters and
translators has allowed for the selection of which interpreters and translators stay on the list, based on their behaviour when providing these services (qualifications,
experience and ethical conduct).
file:///C:/Users/Robert/Downloads/rights-suspected-persons-country_pt.pdf
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #183 on: December 23, 2017, 11:04:31 AM »
 “I undertake, by my honour, to faithfully perform the duties that are entrusted to me”.  Does "conflict of interest come into it?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #184 on: December 23, 2017, 11:16:54 AM »
This has come up too: http://www.gddc.pt/codigos/code_criminal_procedure.html
"Article 132
Rights and duties of witnesses

1 – Except as otherwise provided for by law, every witness has the duty to:

a) Appear, at the right time and venue, before the authority having legitimately summoned or notified the witness, and to remain available until released;

b) Giving oath, when heard by a judicial authority;

c) Observing any indications legitimately given on how testimony should be given;

d) Answer truthfully on questions addressed.

2 – A witness is not compelled to reply any questions when alleging that his replies might lead to his prosecution.

3 – In order to be notified, the witness may indicate his residence, workplace or another address of his choice.

4 – When requested to testify, even during an act forbidden to the public, a witness may be accompanied by a lawyer who is bound to inform him, if necessary, on his rights, without intervening in the interview.

5 – A lawyer assisting a defendant in criminal proceedings may not accompany a witness under paragraph 4 above."
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline barrier

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #185 on: December 23, 2017, 11:19:39 AM »
“I undertake, by my honour, to faithfully perform the duties that are entrusted to me”.  Does "conflict of interest come into it?

Depend's, who, where,when and why a conflict might have occurred.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 11:27:18 AM by barrier »
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #186 on: December 23, 2017, 06:08:23 PM »
Depend's, who, where,when and why a conflict might have occurred.
I understood it that oath had to be made in the presence of a court official, so maybe that Court official had a checklist to tick off before he would accept the oath.
For the whole thing is just dependent on honesty and integrity and for anyone brave enough to lie they could just sign it any way. 
The oath must have been sought from Robert Murat and even then a week later when he becomes the prime suspect the dozen or so translations he had completed by then were assessed for correctness and remained acceptable and kept in the file.
I think with Silvia Batista it is a different thing altogether for you don't speak as openly to your employer as you might to a general member of the public.  But I can not see that much wrong with Amy Tierney's statement but possibly more could have been said had it not been translated through someone so close to the people involved.
"She went to her room and returned to the Tapas with the printer where she printed out 20 to 30 photographs of the girl, using her own paper, in 10x15 format mentioned previously. The memory stick containing the photos belonged to the McCann couple, and came from their camera.

She thinks that all of this took place at about 24.00 on 3rd May 2007. She presumes that she handed all of the photos to Russell, who distributed some to those present, the rest would be for the police authorities."
It is the number of photos printed out and given away  that fascinate me for who admits to be handed a photo of Madeleine print in the 10X15 format?  I think there was evidence in the file that one ended up in Jez Wilkin's apartment.  How and when was that handed to him?


 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:29:46 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Carana

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #187 on: December 26, 2017, 01:15:01 AM »
This has come up too: http://www.gddc.pt/codigos/code_criminal_procedure.html
"Article 132
Rights and duties of witnesses

1 – Except as otherwise provided for by law, every witness has the duty to:

a) Appear, at the right time and venue, before the authority having legitimately summoned or notified the witness, and to remain available until released;

b) Giving oath, when heard by a judicial authority;

c) Observing any indications legitimately given on how testimony should be given;

d) Answer truthfully on questions addressed.

2 – A witness is not compelled to reply any questions when alleging that his replies might lead to his prosecution.

3 – In order to be notified, the witness may indicate his residence, workplace or another address of his choice.

4 – When requested to testify, even during an act forbidden to the public, a witness may be accompanied by a lawyer who is bound to inform him, if necessary, on his rights, without intervening in the interview.

5 – A lawyer assisting a defendant in criminal proceedings may not accompany a witness under paragraph 4 above."


That seems to be a later CPP. It changes all the time. Back then, witnesses didn't normally have the privilege of being accompanied by a lawyer.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #188 on: December 26, 2017, 04:28:02 AM »

That seems to be a later CPP. It changes all the time. Back then, witnesses didn't normally have the privilege of being accompanied by a lawyer.
I was wondering if that clause was moderated by the statement "without intervening in the interview".  I took that to mean when a person was an arguido the lawyer would be "intervening in the interview".
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Carana

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #189 on: December 26, 2017, 09:24:58 AM »
I was wondering if that clause was moderated by the statement "without intervening in the interview".  I took that to mean when a person was an arguido the lawyer would be "intervening in the interview".

Santa came late, but I've just found the CCP (2000) again, which is the one to look at. That one was valid until the revamped one that was passed on 29 August 2007, in theory in force as of 15 September.

As I mentioned before, article 132 in the old code makes no mention of a witness being accompanied by a lawyer.

In theory, therefore, I can't see that it would have been an obligation to allow Kate to have a lawyer present at the pre-arguida interview.


Artigo 132.º

(Deveres gerais da testemunha)

1 - Salvo quando a lei dispuser de forma diferente, incumbem   testemunha os deveres de:

a) Se apresentar, no tempo e no lugar devidos,   autoridade por quem tiver sido legitimamente convocada ou notificada, mantendo­se   sua disposição até ser por ela desobrigada;

b) Prestar juramento, quando ouvida por autoridade judiciária;

c) Obedecer  s indicações que legitimamente lhe forem dadas quanto   forma de prestar depoimento;

d) Responder com verdade  s perguntas que lhe forem dirigidas.

2 - A testemunha não é obrigada a responder a perguntas quando alegar que das respostas resulta a sua responsabilização penal.

 
Before I lose it again:
Código de Processo Penal
ACTUALIZADO até Dez. 2000
http://paulosantos-adv.planetaclix.pt/CPP.htm

Offline Carana

Re: Witness Statements and Interpreters
« Reply #190 on: December 26, 2017, 09:31:54 AM »
I was wondering if that clause was moderated by the statement "without intervening in the interview".  I took that to mean when a person was an arguido the lawyer would be "intervening in the interview".

Yes, the difference is between having a passive and an active role.