Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?

[Robittybob1]

The senior detectives don't have all the evidence...it would be interesting to know why the PJ rated woke and wandered highly unlikely...they must have a reason...imo

Well the only clue is what Kate and Gerry said.   Well put yourself in their shoes (the PJ shoes) see if you can think of a reason?  I bet you can't.  The only reason is that the door was found shut and that required a key to do that.  But that reason falls apart if someone else shut the door from inside after Madeleine left. 

[Carana]

I know there was a time even our organisation went through a process of writing up procedures.  There were procedures before hand but they may not have been written up in the detail that followed. 
You say:
"The GNR wouldn't handle a kidnapping. Any serious crime goes to the PJ.
The GNR were the first responders and organised searches. The PJ handled the rest." 

So at some stage they call in the PJ, hours too late if it is an abduction case.  That is why I asked about their initial response, was it always going to be the same.

Yes, but don't forget that there weren't that many officers available at that time of night (a rural area). The first thing they needed to do was to get basic information, which of course had to go through whoever was helping out as an interpreter.

They checked the flat - which was sensible as it could have been a false alarm.

The OC had already launched their own missing child system (I presume that it was fairly clear what the staff were supposed to do).

It was when there was still no sign of her that the called the PJ.

[Mr Gray]

Well the only clue is what Kate and Gerry said.   Well put yourself in their shoes (the PJ shoes) see if you can think of a reason?  I bet you can't.  The only reason is that the door was found shut and that required a key to do that.  But that reason falls apart if someone else shut the door from inside after Madeleine left.

I cannot see that the pj would make such a claim without good reason....we don't know what that reason is.....it may well be a very good reason...we just do not know

[Carana]

@ Alice The diary is only one example. There were loads of others.

Where did the "tufts" of hair half-baked leak come from?

Daily Mail

Large amount of Madeleine's hair 'found in tyre well in boot of parents' hire car'

Last updated at 18:03pm on 11th September 2007

• Portuguese prosecutors pass case file onto senior judge
• Madeleine's body 'carried in car storage space'
• Bodily fluids found in tyre well were that of 'a decomposing corpse'
• Leicestershire's top detective visits McCanns' home
• Gerry's blog: last few days have been emotionally draining

Madeleine: DNA in the McCanns' hire care boot is said to be a full match

Substantial quantities of Madeleine McCann's hair were found in the tyre well of the boot of her parents' hire car, it was revealed today.

Investigators are convinced so much hair was found that her body must have been stored in the vehicle, which was hired more than three weeks after she disappeared.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/large-amount-of-madeleine-s-hair-found-in-tyre-w-1-t17442.html#p224818

The FSS report doesn't have a typed name on the PT translation, just a signature. Angela something?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2652a.jpg


Unless the PT tabloids were deliberately making half of it up (at least this one) one possibility is that a PJ officer or employee simply told a relative or spouse, who then repeated it and tabloid ears picked it up and possibly embellished it. At least it could explain why it was so disconnected from the actual findings.

[pathfinder73]

And we never did find out the truth of what happened to The Gaspar Statements.

Were they sent by The UK Police, and then buried under the mess left by Amaral?

The PJ didn't receive Crecheman's questionnaire in 2007 re Tanner sighting - LP incompetence is suspicious! If Amaral had seen the Gaspar statements then things would have changed much sooner. Amaral should have seen those statements from LP - urgently faxed to the SIO in May! He never saw them and left the case in October. UK police have a lot to answer for so all eyes are on SY.

[Carana]

The PJ didn't receive Crecheman's questionnaire in 2007 re Tanner sighting - LP incompetence is suspicious! If Amaral had seen the Gaspar statements then things would have changed much sooner. Amaral should have seen those statements from LP - urgently faxed to the SIO in May! He never saw them and left the case in October. UK police have a lot to answer for so all eyes are on SY.

If LP hadn't sent them over for some reason, how did Paiva know they existed?

[Eleanor]

The PJ didn't receive Crecheman's questionnaire in 2007 re Tanner sighting - LP incompetence is suspicious! If Amaral had seen the Gaspar statements then things would have changed much sooner. Amaral should have seen those statements from LP - urgently faxed to the SIO in May! He never saw them and left the case in October. UK police have a lot to answer for so all eyes are on SY.

This is Opinion as Fact.  But I will let that pass.  We don't know if Amaral saw The Gaspar Statements before he was sacked.  But Paiva obviously knew of their existence.  How could that be?

[Robittybob1]

I cannot see that the pj would make such a claim without good reason....we don't know what that reason is.....it may well be a very good reason...we just do not know

Just think of one.  These are a few I thought of 
1. The door was nailed shut. 
2. The door had been deadlocked and Gerry had the key.   
3. The lever was rusted and too stiff for a 4 year old. 
4.  ....
You could keep on making up reasons but I don't think it is possible to find one that holds up to scrutiny.

If the intruder had a key to open and close the door obviously the front door is an exit point.  How did he eliminate that one?

[pathfinder73]

This is Opinion as Fact.  But I will let that pass.  We don't know if Amaral saw The Gaspar Statements before he was sacked.  But Paiva obviously knew of their existence.  How could that be?

Those statements were given in May. Amaral never saw them. They should be sent straight to the SIO in May for his urgent attention. It never happened. That is FACT.

[Mr Gray]

Just think of one.  These are a few I thought of 
1. The door was nailed shut. 
2. The door had been deadlocked and Gerry had the key.   
3. The lever was rusted and too stiff for a 4 year old. 
4.  ....
You could keep on making up reasons but I don't think it is possible to find one that holds up to scrutiny.

If the intruder had a key to open and close the door obviously the front door is an exit point.  How did he eliminate that one?

We would need to ask the PJ...just because you cannot think of one does not mean there isn't one.
I think is highly unlikely they would use the words highly unlikely unless they had a good reason

[Mr Gray]

Those statements were given in May. Amaral never saw them. They should be sent straight to the SIO in May for his urgent attention. It never happened. That is FACT.

You also added UK police have a lot to answer for....that's opinion

[ShiningInLuz]

What I am saying is a type of role playing.  The play involves the GNR.  The author of the play assumes rightly or wrongly that the GNR have sets of procedures to follow in different situations.
Would you know if the GNR have a different response plan to a kidnapping as opposed to a wandering child? 
If they don't there is a problem.

If they are always going to respond to a missing child as if it has wandered off and fallen asleep under a tree somewhere, we have a problem for they will be behind in the potential abduction cases.

It appears (IMO) in the latest case their response was a bit more proactive toward a possible abduction even though on the surface it was 100% a wandering off scenario.

Are you having a laugh?  This is NOT role-playing, anything but.

Why are you asking me about a GNR procedure for kidnapped children?

You proposed they had one.  I asked you what it was, because I had never heard of it.

Do you, or do you not, have a 2007 GNR procedure for kidnapped children?  The answer is yes or no.

[Eleanor]

Those statements were given in May. Amaral never saw them. They should be sent straight to the SIO in May for his urgent attention. It never happened. That is FACT.

If you persist in stating Opinion as Fact, and without a Cite, then I will delete your comments.  Thank You.

[Robittybob1]

Are you having a laugh?  This is NOT role-playing, anything but.

Why are you asking me about a GNR procedure for kidnapped children?

You proposed they had one.  I asked you what it was, because I had never heard of it.

Do you, or do you not, have a 2007 GNR procedure for kidnapped children?  The answer is yes or no.

Only in my role playing they did.

We would need to ask the PJ...just because you cannot think of one does not mean there isn't one.
I think is highly unlikely they would use the words highly unlikely unless they had a good reason

What reason could there possibly be?  IMO It is not possible to even imagine one. 

[Mr Gray]

Only in my role playing they did.
What reason could there possibly be?  IMO It is not possible to even imagine one.

We would need to ask the PJ...just because you cannot think of one does not mean there isn't one.
I think is highly unlikely they would use the words highly unlikely unless they had a good reason