Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?

[Carana]

I have read Flat Earth News Carana and an excellent book it is too however I think it was the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone that triggered Leveson.

We have something in common!

Yes, it was the Millie Dowler (RIP) saga to a large extent, but as the subject-matter unravelled quite quickly, there was clearly a massive issue to address that was far broader than that sad case. I'm not sure that a single, isolated, case would have triggered that broad inquiry.

ETA: And the book wasn't devoted to that case, but was a broader exposé of media culture.

[G-Unit]

G-Unit,

My impression is that Clarence did give a few reputable journalists basic info re the McCann's version and asked if they'd be interested in checking it out. At the time, there were no available files to verify some details, so inevitably there are a few inaccuracies that we now know about. Personally, I prefer the more neutral piece by David Rose.

However.... don't forget that this was after the PT onslaught that revved up around 12-13 September, just when they were given leave to return to the UK, repeated by the UK tabloids about "tufts" of hair, "100% DNA in the car" and allusions to gory substances that could only point to gruesome remains of a thawing corpse, "100% DNA in the car", Kate couldn't cope with her "hysterical" kids, and none of that turned out to be accurate.

Add to that, various people on social media who were threatening to take matters (physically) into their own hands. You do remember "the Molotov cocktail" and the threat to kidnap the twins, don't you?

Imagine for one moment, despite the fact you may never have left your kids unattended for a single minute and therefore disapprove of the fact that they did, but that you'd unwittingly made a bad judgment call about something (take it out of context and try to imagine something totally different) that led to a disastrous situation and ended
up with not only (something) cherished that had disappeared, or any other situation that you would never have wanted to happen, and that you knew that escalating allegations about you weren't true, but everyone was then out baying for your blood (including the police who were supposed to be considering all options, but who, in the absence of any other obvious slamdunker that quickly panned out, had decided that you were therefore the guilty party in a heinous crime and genuinely believed that you were about to be stitched up in a foreign country? And bear in mind that the original team's only other case involving a similar type of situation had got people banged up under the maximum penalty under less than limpid conditions, and on more than dubious evidence.

If you can step back and genuinely imagine yourself in such a situation, and please try to think of a different situation to this particular context, what would you have done? Honestly?

I've heard so many knee-jerk reactions... but I'm hoping that you'll take a moment to think about it.

You seem to be presenting as facts that the McCanns 'made a bad judgement call', that they 'knew that escalating allegations about them weren't true', and that they 'genuinely believed that they were about to be stitched up in a foreign country'.

Can you prove that any of the above are facts? I don't think you can, but you need to prove they are if you expect me to place myself in the situation you describe. The fact that you believe the McCann's narrative  doesn't make it true.

[Carana]

You seem to be presenting as facts that the McCanns 'made a bad judgement call', that they 'knew that escalating allegations about them weren't true', and that they 'genuinely believed that they were about to be stitched up in a foreign country'.

Can you prove that any of the above are facts? I don't think you can, but you need to prove they are if you expect me to place myself in the situation you describe. The fact that you believe the McCann's narrative  doesn't make it true.

Ok. Sigh.

I was commenting on your criticism of the "pro" article, which happened to mention the comment that had stuck i my mind about judicial secrecy. That comment coincides with numerous other statements made during the Leveson inquiry.

Whatever the source of the constant drip of half-baked leaks from the investigation, they came from somewhere. And were all insinuating that the McCanns were necessarily guilty of Amaral's theory and of the unsavoury mental image of transporting thawing, gooey remains in a car.

Which "facts" support the idea that a gooey, thawing mess of remains had been transported in the car? Or that 15 alleles in that contaminated soup were necessarily the result of that mess having been transported in it?

FYI: I was a long-time fencesitter (which, de facto, wasn't a popular stance with either camp). lol

[slartibartfast]

Ok. Sigh.

I was commenting on your criticism of the "pro" article, which happened to mention the comment that had stuck i my mind about judicial secrecy. That comment coincides with numerous other statements made during the Leveson inquiry.

Whatever the source of the constant drip of half-baked leaks from the investigation, they came from somewhere. And were all insinuating that the McCanns were necessarily guilty of Amaral's theory and of the unsavoury mental image of transporting thawing, gooey remains in a car.

Which "facts" support the idea that a gooey, thawing mess of remains had been transported in the car? Or that 15 alleles in that contaminated soup were necessarily the result of that mess having been transported in it?

FYI: I was a long-time fencesitter (which, de facto, wasn't a popular stance with either camp). lol

Fencesitting isn’t a problem, I would be very wary of anyone who was completely one way or the other.

[Mr Gray]

Fencesitting isn’t a problem, I would be very wary of anyone who was completely one way or the other.

and Im wary of thse who think the dog alerts are circunstantial evidence

[Mr Gray]

Fencesitting isn’t a problem, I would be very wary of anyone who was completely one way or the other.

Both investigations have stated they are completely one way

[jassi]

What came first, Jassi, the chicken or the egg?

Depends on whether you believe in creation or evolution, I suppose.

[John]

and Im wary of thse who think the dog alerts are circunstantial evidence

The search results obtained from the GNR tracker dogs, the CSI dog and the EVRD constitute evidence in the Madeleine McCann case.  However, without further corroborative or informative evidence the significance of that evidence remains unknown.

It should also be pointed out that the tracker dogs finds and the CSI/EVRD alerts appear to be mutually exclusive in that they can't all relate to Madeleine.  Or to put it another way, she couldn't have died in 5a and still walked out of it.

[Robittybob1]

The search results obtained from the GNR tracker dogs, the CSI dog and the EVRD constitute evidence in the Madeleine McCann case.  However, without further corroborative or informative evidence the significance of that evidence remains unknown.

It should also be pointed out that the tracker dogs finds and the CSI/EVRD alerts appear to be mutually exclusive in that they can't all relate to Madeleine.  Or to put it another way, she couldn't have died in 5a and still walked out of it.

This is only suggestions:
There could be a situation where she walked out, then died, later Kate or other brought her back in and she was left in the apartment, somewhere, till after the PJ retire for the night.

What I am more concerned about is whether the door at the secondary reception entrance was ever closed at a certain time during the night.  Imagine if Kate had assumed the door was being left open and it was for the most part but at a certain time someone closed the door to stop outsiders coming on to the OC premises.  Patrons could now leave but no longer return. 
If during that time Madeleine did her wandering was she faced with a closed door at the secondary reception entrance?  If so what would she do?

[Robittybob1]

Depends on whether you believe in creation or evolution, I suppose.

"What came first, Jassi, the chicken or the egg?"  I have been told by a veterinarian that the rooster came first.  I'm still not sure what she meant.

[G-Unit]

Ok. Sigh.

I was commenting on your criticism of the "pro" article, which happened to mention the comment that had stuck i my mind about judicial secrecy. That comment coincides with numerous other statements made during the Leveson inquiry.

Whatever the source of the constant drip of half-baked leaks from the investigation, they came from somewhere. And were all insinuating that the McCanns were necessarily guilty of Amaral's theory and of the unsavoury mental image of transporting thawing, gooey remains in a car.

Which "facts" support the idea that a gooey, thawing mess of remains had been transported in the car? Or that 15 alleles in that contaminated soup were necessarily the result of that mess having been transported in it?

FYI: I was a long-time fencesitter (which, de facto, wasn't a popular stance with either camp). lol

You said  they 'knew that escalating allegations about them weren't true' without saying which allegations you were referring to. Now you are referring to them being accused of 'transporting thawing, gooey remains in a car.'

Firstly, no-one has ever said that was a fact as far as I know. The PJ quite rightly asked them on 7th September if they could explain why the two dogs alerted to their apartment and hire car. I say quite rightly because they could hardly ignore it, could they? It isn't unheard of, you see, as this Q & A with a DCI shows;

Madeleine was killed, her body hidden before being moved in the boot of the McCanns' silver Renault Scenic

DCI Kirkham: This is what police will have been quizzing Kate about. You don't have some one in for 11 hours to check a few points. Portuguese police apparently believe Madeleine was killed by accident. That fits with the suggestion that her body could have been hidden for a while. If murder is pre-meditated, the killer has worked out what to do with the body. If it happens without planning, most people panic and either run, cover up how the death happened or hide the body. Small bodies can easily disappear down holes and even if you do not know the area you will not have to go far to find somewhere to dump it. Later, if you think you are getting away with it, there may be a temptation to return and dispose of the body before the search widens or somebody stumbles across it.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/MIRROR_08_09_2007.htm

In my opinion the emotive words you used are designed to suggest how unsavoury and outlandish the idea is, but it isn't. The police have to deal with unsavoury crime scenes and don't rule scenarios out because they seem outlandish to people unfamiliar with the actions of the desperate.

[Robittybob1]

You said  they 'knew that escalating allegations about them weren't true' without saying which allegations you were referring to. Now you are referring to them being accused of 'transporting thawing, gooey remains in a car.'

Firstly, no-one has ever said that was a fact as far as I know. The PJ quite rightly asked them on 7th September if they could explain why the two dogs alerted to their apartment and hire car. I say quite rightly because they could hardly ignore it, could they? It isn't unheard of, you see, as this Q & A with a DCI shows;

Madeleine was killed, her body hidden before being moved in the boot of the McCanns' silver Renault Scenic

DCI Kirkham: This is what police will have been quizzing Kate about. You don't have some one in for 11 hours to check a few points. Portuguese police apparently believe Madeleine was killed by accident. That fits with the suggestion that her body could have been hidden for a while. If murder is pre-meditated, the killer has worked out what to do with the body. If it happens without planning, most people panic and either run, cover up how the death happened or hide the body. Small bodies can easily disappear down holes and even if you do not know the area you will not have to go far to find somewhere to dump it. Later, if you think you are getting away with it, there may be a temptation to return and dispose of the body before the search widens or somebody stumbles across it.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/MIRROR_08_09_2007.htm

In my opinion the emotive words you used are designed to suggest how unsavoury and outlandish the idea is, but it isn't. The police have to deal with unsavoury crime scenes and don't rule scenarios out because they seem outlandish to people unfamiliar with the actions of the desperate.

If the body had been left in the open for 5 weeks the maggots would have stripped the body and it would be most difficult to move.  That is why the frozen body idea seems the only one that makes sense to me.  So it isn't a matter of looking for somewhere to hide a body but actually looking for a freezer in which to hide a body, and generally they are found inside a building for they need energy to run them.

So whoever did that needs keys and access to other buildings around PdL.  That doesn't sound like the Tapas 9 does it.

[G-Unit]

If the body had been left in the open for 5 weeks the maggots would have stripped the body and it would be most difficult to move.  That is why the frozen body idea seems the only one that makes sense to me.  So it isn't a matter of looking for somewhere to hide a body but actually looking for a freezer in which to hide a body, and generally they are found inside a building for they need energy to run them.

So whoever did that needs keys and access to other buildings around PdL.  That doesn't sound like the Tapas 9 does it.

You and Amaral and your frozen bodies lol. A body can be kept for several weeks if just refrigerated.

[jassi]

You and Amaral and your frozen bodies lol. A body can be kept for several weeks if just refrigerated.

Indeed, bodies are stored in mortuary fridges, often for weeks, not freezers

[Robittybob1]

You and Amaral and your frozen bodies lol. A body can be kept for several weeks if just refrigerated.

What temperature is that?  are you talking 4 degrees C or -1 degrees C?  What temperature are morgues run at?
Wikipedia "Types of cold chambers[edit]
There are two types of mortuary cold chambers:

Positive temperature
Bodies are kept between 2 °C (36 °F) and 4 °C (39 °F). While this is usually used for keeping bodies for up to several weeks, it does not prevent decomposition, which continues at a slower rate than at room temperature.[3]

Negative temperature
Bodies are kept at between −10 °C (14 °F) and −50 °C (−58 °F). Usually used at forensic institutes, particularly when a body has not been identified. At these temperatures the body is completely frozen and decomposition is very much reduced." 
Amaral talked of the body being moved 5 weeks later.  Sounds like that would be difficult in a fridge.
It was more than 20 days before they hired the Renault.  When would the move be done?  From where to where?

And then you've got all the eyes of the world on the McCanns in the early days so could they really do that and not be noticed?