Have we learnt anything from the Maddie case?

[pathfinder73]

He probably didnt bleed onto the car key...

His blood got on the car key when he held it therefore he was bleeding IMO. He still hasn't explained how he bled?

[pathfinder73]

Ok, I think I've got it.

10 (1) and 10 (2) = the vertical vent panel + the horizontal side bar (north-south, right-hand side) as viewed from the boot.

11 was the horizontal covering (it doesn't actually say whether it was fibre-coated or just plastic), but it's where the forensic guys found hairs / fibres.

12 is the key card.

Unless anyone can substantiate anything different, there never was a fibre-coated mat that was sent for DNA analysis as such.

That seems reasonable. Well done. What is the source for the fibre-coated mat ?

[Carana]

I wonder what caused Gerry to bleed onto the car key? No word in their book of truth to explain his blood being found.

No blood was ever forensically corroborated - we're just going off Keela's alerts. Oh and Eddie's, but Gerry is very much alive, and Eddie never alerted to the boot.

A knicked finger at some point in time by anyone could explain that. Dump shopping in the boot, take car card and drive off.

Could even be a speck of blood from some unknown person on whatever the shopping was contained in, and brushed against the side panel.

I'm not the only person to occasionally knick a finger, am I?

If I've got this straight (happy to be corrected), there never was a gooey soaked mat, let alone the underside of one. And, no, there never were tufts of hair that could only have come from a cadaver, either.

[Carana]

That seems reasonable. Well done. What is the source for the fibre-coated mat ?

The "tampa da mala" (horizontal thing) got variously translated as "cover" or "mat" and some bit or other was fibre-coated - but the FSS description say that the No. 10 was in two parts - one bit fibre-coated with vents, and another mysterious plastic bit. The pic of No. 11 didn't really help to figure out what it was, either. It did look like it could have been a mat.

[Mr Gray]

No blood was ever forensically corroborated - we're just going off Keela's alerts. Oh and Eddie's, but Gerry is very much alive, and Eddie never alerted to the boot.

A knicked finger at some point in time by anyone could explain that. Dump shopping in the boot, take car card and drive off.

Could even be a speck of blood from some unknown person on whatever the shopping was contained in, and brushed against the side panel.

I'm not the only person to occasionally knick a finger, am I?

If I've got this straight (happy to be corrected), there never was a gooey soaked mat, let alone the underside of one. And, no, there never were tufts of hair that could only have come from a cadaver, either.

men fairly reglarly cut themselves shaving...a speck on the finger could quite easily transfer to the key fob...the real question for me is how little blood keeela found

[Carana]

Believe it or not, at one point, when I was back to thinking that the McCanns weren't involved,  I tried to imagine a different scenario re the car issue, just to see if I was being biased or not.

My imagined scenario was that some sadistic creep nicked their car in the middle of the night and dumped her body in it to dispose of it. It was just a personal experiment: if I took the McCanns out of the equation, would my conclusions have been any different?

No. I'd have been highly sceptical about that theory as well. Objectively, I really can't see how a decomposing body could have been in that car - whoever was involved.

[faithlilly]

Believe it or not, at one point, when I was back to thinking that the McCanns weren't involved,  I tried to imagine a different scenario re the car issue, just to see if I was being biased or not.

My imagined scenario was that some sadistic creep nicked their car in the middle of the night and dumped her body in it to dispose of it. It was just a personal experiment: if I took the McCanns out of the equation, would my conclusions have been any different?

No. I'd have been highly sceptical about that theory as well. Objectively, I really can't see how a decomposing body could have been in that car - whoever was involved.

That's something we are both agreed on Carana.

Eddie's alert and Keela's lack of alert in the McCann's bedroom is harder to explain though

[Mr Gray]

That's something we are both agreed on Carana.

Eddie's alert and Keela's lack of alert in the McCann's bedroom is harder to explain though

as john has pointed out whats harder to expalin is the cadaver dog alert and the tracker dog tracking..  seeing as dogs are not supposed to lie......the alerts themselves are easily explained

[Carana]

men fairly reglarly cut themselves shaving...a speck on the finger could quite easily transfer to the key fob...the real question for me is how little blood keeela found

I doubt we'll ever know, Davel. According to Grime, Keela was 100% accurate on the physical presence of blood... even in traces too minute to be forensically corroborated.

I can imagine how such a test could be done, and I find it plausible, but AFAIK her training records aren't in the public domain.

And, no... I don't think i could cope with yet another dog thread.... Suffice to say, again, IMO, Eddie was the GP (wide spectrum of possibilities). and Keela was the haemotologist.

[Mr Gray]

I doubt we'll ever know, Davel. According to Grime, Keela was 100% accurate on the physical presence of blood... even in traces too minute to be forensically corroborated.

how could he possibly know that...has keela ever falsely alerted

[faithlilly]

as john has pointed out whats harder to expalin is the cadaver dog alert and the tracker dog tracking..  seeing as dogs are not supposed to lie......the alerts themselves are easily explained

Not hard at all. The tracker dogs followed Madeleine's scent left earlier in the day/days

[Mr Gray]

Not hard at all. The tracker dogs followed Madeleine's scent left earlier in the day/days.

not according to John and angelo

[faithlilly]

not according to John and angelo

And ?

[Carana]

That's something we are both agreed on Carana.

Eddie's alert and Keela's lack of alert in the McCann's bedroom is harder to explain though

I agreed with you on something the other day. I know this doesn't happen often... ;)

Yes, I agree that it's harder to explain, but IMO the simplistic matrix of one or both dogs alerting is simply that... simplistic.

If you read Grime's documents, which I'm sure we all have, he states that Keela only alerts to the PHYSICAL presence of blood. He says no such thing about Eddie. And, AFAIK, what exactly he wouldn't react to, aside from pork-based foodstuffs in a restaurant and whatever roadkill he'd ever come across, isn't clear at all.

Without going into bizarre theories of dead pigs in cupboards, I find it quite plausible that something (socks with a plaster covering a small foot cut?) removed prior to the dogs (the flat had been re-occupied up to a week previously) could be a feasible explanation. No one seems to have asked the prior occupants... as far as we know from the available files.

It might not be the right explanation, but I find it quite plausible.

[Alice Purjorick]

so totally useless as evidence...next

No! it is evidence that nothing specific can ruled in or ruled out.

This discussion has been going on for at least 4 years to my knowledge with each side drawing erroneous conclusions.