Abduction

[sadie]

If you have a key it would make it more of an inside job.  Where do you get a key from in a hurry?  And the key was a special type with two sets of pins  (hard to get).
Who would have a key?

Who would have a key?

Reception staff
Maintenance workers
Cleaners
Senior overseeing staff
The flat owner
Previous holiday makers possibly
.... and there would be spares.


Also, so easy to 'borrow' a key and cast another one.  I could do it easily

or possibly even vanish one of the keys copies.



The way in and out was almost certainly via the front door

AIMO

[sadie]

From what Alexandre Simas says you can't rule out the use of a key, but if a key was used it really points the finger back to an OC employee or former OC employee and that had been considered to a specific person   except his alibi stacked up.  "a 40-year-old heroin addict named Euclides “Toni” Monteiro from Cape Verde, who was fired by the Ocean Club"  https://www.thedailybeast.com/portuguese-police-name-dead-addict-as-madeleine-mccann-suspect

Nah, a red herring IMO

He is almost certainly the "Fall guy"

[Carana]

When you push the triangular piece into the lock does the rectangular bit move with it or remain in place?
If the latter you should not be able to close the door properly from outside  without a key

They move together. I have to slam it to shut (if there's a draft, it will slam on its own). I normally use the key to shut it as slamming it obviously makes a racket. The habit of using a key also helps me to make sure that I actually, erm, have one on me. lol

What I found intriguing is that depending on the angle, it looks the same as the photo of the 5A one (ie as if the rectangular bit isn't flush), and then from a different angle, it does. So I'm still not sure if 5A could be closed without a key or not.

[Robittybob1]

They move together. I have to slam it to shut (if there's a draft, it will slam on its own). I normally use the key to shut it as slamming it obviously makes a racket. The habit of using a key also helps me to make sure that I actually, erm, have one on me. lol

What I found intriguing is that depending on the angle, it looks the same as the photo of the 5A one (ie as if the rectangular bit isn't flush), and then from a different angle, it does. So I'm still not sure if 5A could be closed without a key or not.

I think what you are saying is very significant. 

[Carana]

it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me.  Those rim locks were not designed to depend on a rightly positioned screw to yield security from being picked with a malleable card.

Somewhere on here, I posted a still of him shoving the card in. I'm not sure what screw he's talking about. Is it the screw of the plate that wasn't screwed in properly? Or was he talking about something else.

The reason for asking is he was using the full width of the card, so part of it could have come across a screw that wasn't flush. But if the card had been cut in half (or some other malleable object), would it have still necessarily hit this "screw" or not?

[Carana]

Groundhog day!
I once posted the comics for such locks but no one believed them as the scuttlebutt has it that at 37.0909° N, 8.7591° W absolutely everything different following no known standard ......

I am put more in mind of Laputa really. [Mods note Dean Swift style not Spanish]

lol I must have missed that post.

[slartibartfast]

Who would have a key?

Reception staff
Maintenance workers
Cleaners
Senior overseeing staff
The flat owner
Previous holiday makers possibly
.... and there would be spares.


Also, so easy to 'borrow' a key and cast another one.  I could do it easily

or possibly even vanish one of the keys copies.



The way in and out was almost certainly via the front door

AIMO

Cast in what?

[sadie]

Cast in what?

There are model casting kits that come complete with the casting material. 
When I was a kid, an older friend used to cast model soldiers then paint them.  I think he used lead.  Lead would be rather maleable, but I think it would be fine for a key used one off.  The beauty of it is that it would melt at a lower temperature than some metals and would be, I should think, pretty easy to get hold of with so many derelict buildings around.

But if you are truly interested, slarti, why not google for home casting kits.

[Alice Purjorick]

Where are we at then nearly 100 posts on?

Precis.
 
Start point: For there to have been abduction the subject and object must occupy the same space and time.
To satisfy that condition in our discussion either the object left the building or the subject entered the building.
The consideration is “the how” could that be effected and still satisfy certain criteria.
So far the Planned Snatch does not have many legs or supporters so can be sidelined for a while.

As one poster has correctly identified random snatches burglaries etc can be rolled into one for the purposes of only considering “the how”.
So we are left with those possibilities plus woke and wandered.
The archiving report as we are frequently reminded says and I paraphrase “woke and wandered is highly unlikely”. We should also be cognisant of the words of A.C Rowley in this respect. For the purposes here my definition of highly unlikely is:
When you use the phrase "highly unlikely", you mean that something is “very unlikely,”  or it's almost sure not to happen.

So anything to do with a planned snatch or woke and wandered is now sitting quietly in the “Foinavon Paddock”; more of that later maybe.

Well we don’t have much left now do we?
In fact if we accept the “no evidence of break in” from the original investigation [paraphrased as per ] then
=>
The perp being someone with a key or lock picks going in through the front door
or
a very tidy someone going in through the patio doors reinstating the site to its original condition after himself/herself, as has been pointed out by another poster elsewhere.

[Alice Purjorick]

1)Have you heard of the term "modification". 2)If you look through the previous occupants of 5A you will see the tenants had troubles with the locking of the front door. 3) It seemed to suggest the possibility that the lock had been altered from the standard.
Amaral and his security adviser Alexandre Simas described the reason why the lock could not be opened with a card.  It was not the standard reason.   I propose the fact that Mr Simas describes the non standard method of security being used in that apartment confirms that the lock had been modified.
Here is the transcript:
https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2009/04/maddie-truth-of-lie-documentary.html

"43.28 – With the help from one of the major experts from the Scientific Police, who worked for the Polícia Judiciária, Alexandre Simas, Gonçalo Amaral intends to prove, first, that it was impossible for the child to be abducted, starting by demonstrating that the indications prove that the apartment’s window and door were not forced.

43.47 - How does one open a door like this, without the key?

Alexandre Simas
Expert (Former Polícia Judiciária)

43.51 – This type of apartment door, normally there are only three possibilities: to extract the lock’s cannon, which didn’t happen, or it would have been reported; a false key, a copy or one that was used without permission; or using a malleable material, as long as it’s not locked, it’s introduced, and it makes the lock go back inside. But when it goes in, even if it did, it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me.

44.33 – If the door wasn’t opened without a key, the window doesn’t bear any traces of having been forced, either."

1) No what is it?
2) Cite
3) Why would you think a lock had been modified just because you had a problem making it work?

Personally I would contact the estate managers or if I had toolkit handy reach for a silicone spray then check the key cutting for noticeable wear and possibly strip and clean the lock if it was p*****g with rain and I was short laughs.

[Mr Gray]

Where are we at then nearly 100 posts on?

Precis.
 
Start point: For there to have been abduction the subject and object must occupy the same space and time.
To satisfy that condition in our discussion either the object left the building or the subject entered the building.
The consideration is “the how” could that be effected and still satisfy certain criteria.
So far the Planned Snatch does not have many legs or supporters so can be sidelined for a while.

As one poster has correctly identified random snatches burglaries etc can be rolled into one for the purposes of only considering “the how”.
So we are left with those possibilities plus woke and wandered.
The archiving report as we are frequently reminded says and I paraphrase “woke and wandered is highly unlikely”. We should also be cognisant of the words of A.C Rowley in this respect. For the purposes here my definition of highly unlikely is:
When you use the phrase "highly unlikely", you mean that something is “very unlikely,”  or it's almost sure not to happen.

So anything to do with a planned snatch or woke and wandered is now sitting quietly in the “Foinavon Paddock”; more of that later maybe.

Well we don’t have much left now do we?
In fact if we accept the “no evidence of break in” from the original investigation [paraphrased as per ] then
=>
The perp being someone with a key or lock picks going in through the front door
or
a very tidy someone going in through the patio doors reinstating the site to its original condition after himself/herself, as has been pointed out by another poster elsewhere.

anyone entering through the patio door would close curtain and door behind them not because they were tidy but because they did not want to arouse suspicion ...they could have then left through the front door

[Lace]

As I understand it Smelly man had a history of entering people's apartments.

Yes and the occupants said there was no evidence of a break in.    I would have liked to have asked Amaral when he said there was no abduction as the door was'nt forced,   how did the burglars and the sex attacker get in Mr. Amaral.

[Robittybob1]

1) No what is it?
2) Cite
3) Why would you think a lock had been modified just because you had a problem making it work?

Personally I would contact the estate managers or if I had toolkit handy reach for a silicone spray then check the key cutting for noticeable wear and possibly strip and clean the lock if it was p*****g with rain and I was short laughs.

It would be a matter of studying the particular "Italian style" rim lock in use at Ocean Club Gardens.  You would need to work out how to stop the latch bolt deadlock plunger moving at the same time as the latch bolt.
Modification is a possibility. as well as lack of lubrication.

Cite:  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htm  look for 5.A. former occupants.

[Alice Purjorick]

anyone entering through the patio door would close curtain and door behind them not because they were tidy but because they did not want to arouse suspicion ...they could have then left through the front door

The drapes I could maybe stretch a point for but the child gate ?
It presupposes he /she knew in advance exit through the front was on if he went in through the back.
Anyway back to the plot; it does not materially affect the comments:
Man with picklocks or key.
Or man up through patio doors and out the back/front.
They are your remaining options faites vos jeux
Having made your choice have a bash at what happens "downstream"

[faithlilly]

Yes and the occupants said there was no evidence of a break in.    I would have liked to have asked Amaral when he said there was no abduction as the door was'nt forced,   how did the burglars and the sex attacker get in Mr. Amaral.

If the occupants were in the apartment at the time surely the door would have probably been unlocked and/or the windows open ?