When was the door shut? David Payne. Rules out wandering off.

[Robittybob1]

You've lost me.  I know they ran and checked on their own children and checked if the windows were unlocked but when did they search the other apartments looking for Madeleine?

Each family checked their own apartment, except for Jane's it read like Rachael and Jane went through there. [PS: I might still be a bit wrong there as it sounds like the both checked on Grace - who is Rachael's kid not Jane's.]

[Brietta]

Each family checked their own apartment, except for Jane's it read like Rachael and Jane went through there.

One of the children from their party was missing.  They had all left their children in exactly the same circumstances.
Their priority was to check on their own children in their respective apartments ... imagine the horror of the situation.

[Carana]

A Mark Warner guest, a man, out on the streets just prior to 10:00 PM that knows Madeleine by name must be within rather a limited number of people.

Note:  I'm not suggesting this person has done anything wrong or illegal.

Bear in mind that that is his recollection of what his wife vaguely remembered. I haven't come across a statement by her.



At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things,

snip

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****.

snip

My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance". OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

Some possibilities:

a) She did hear someone calling Madeleine before Kate's check (but there's nothing in the files that would substantiate that).

b) She heard someone calling someone else and thought it might have been Madeleine that she heard.

c) She heard someone calling Madeleine but once people were out looking for her and Steve got muddled about when exactly that was. One reason I think this might be the case is that he said that at 8:30 all the T9 were sitting at their table - but they weren't all there until nearly 9pm. If his timing was out by 20-25 minutes (i.e., they left the Tapas later than he'd remembered), she could well have heard someone calling her (one of the Tapas, or OC staff) just after 10pm. I've copied some of the statements, but IMO the collective timeline is probably more accurate.

Fiona's 4 May statement:
She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.

David's 4 May statement:
Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm. According to what he remembers, when they arrived, all the members of the group were present, apart from the children, who were in bed.

Matt's 4 May statement:
That the last to arrive at the restaurant was the couple David and Fiona. That the latter arrived at the restaurant at around 9pm.

That around 9.05pm, the interviewee went to the area of the apartments.



The collective timeline:

2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats' windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

[Robittybob1]

you've done a bit of work haven't you.  I'll get back to you.

[G-Unit]

Who writes up this timeline?  Is it entirely based on what the witnesses have stated in their statements?

I am totally surprised by this few lines about what Matthew Oldfield must have said to the PJ:
Quote:  "2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.

Does Matthew say that in any of his statements?  Find it.

The problem is that they all say different things at different times. This was the group timeline that they all constructed together on Georgina's laptop just after the first weekend. They all agreed it was correct and gave it to the PJ. Gerry, for example, accepted this at that time, but not later;

2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Jane blames the PJ in her rog for getting the height of the man she saw wrong, but they themselves wrote it in this document;

Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tal1 approximately with a slim build.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Russell clarified the origins of this timeline;

 “Erm, and so that was a timeline that was made purely by the nine of us.... I typed it and it was typed on a borrowed laptop from err the tennis coach of Mark WARNER who’s called Georgina......I turned up on my second interview and presented them with the, with the stick and said, ‘look we’ve sat down, it’s all typed, we think this is quite accurate, there you go’.....this was done to go over the events, down on paper before they become, inevitably they got less and less clear in our mind
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Inevitably, perhaps, his memory is less clear a year later because he didn't hand over a 'stick' according to the PJ. They got the typed pages on 10th, Russell's second interview was on 11th;

On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

[Carana]

The problem is that they all say different things at different times. This was the group timeline that they all constructed together on Georgina's laptop just after the first weekend. They all agreed it was correct and gave it to the PJ. Gerry, for example, accepted this at that time, but not later;

2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Jane blames the PJ in her rog for getting the height of the man she saw wrong, but they themselves wrote it in this document;

Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tal1 approximately with a slim build.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Russell clarified the origins of this timeline;

 “Erm, and so that was a timeline that was made purely by the nine of us.... I typed it and it was typed on a borrowed laptop from err the tennis coach of Mark WARNER who’s called Georgina......I turned up on my second interview and presented them with the, with the stick and said, ‘look we’ve sat down, it’s all typed, we think this is quite accurate, there you go’.....this was done to go over the events, down on paper before they become, inevitably they got less and less clear in our mind
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Inevitably, perhaps, his memory is less clear a year later because he didn't hand over a 'stick' according to the PJ. They got the typed pages on 10th, Russell's second interview was on 11th;

On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

Re the USB stick, it's possible he hadn't realised that the FLO had already handed over a printed copy and turned up with a stick after the PJ had already got a copy.

[Robittybob1]

1.7 m = 5 foot 7 inches.

[sadie]

1.7 m = 5 foot 7 inches.

And, IMO, that is noticeably on the short side for a man.

[faithlilly]

Bear in mind that that is his recollection of what his wife vaguely remembered. I haven't come across a statement by her.



At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things,

snip

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****.

snip

My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance". OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

Some possibilities:

a) She did hear someone calling Madeleine before Kate's check (but there's nothing in the files that would substantiate that).

b) She heard someone calling someone else and thought it might have been Madeleine that she heard.

c) She heard someone calling Madeleine but once people were out looking for her and Steve got muddled about when exactly that was. One reason I think this might be the case is that he said that at 8:30 all the T9 were sitting at their table - but they weren't all there until nearly 9pm. If his timing was out by 20-25 minutes (i.e., they left the Tapas later than he'd remembered), she could well have heard someone calling her (one of the Tapas, or OC staff) just after 10pm. I've copied some of the statements, but IMO the collective timeline is probably more accurate.

Fiona's 4 May statement:
She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.

David's 4 May statement:
Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm. According to what he remembers, when they arrived, all the members of the group were present, apart from the children, who were in bed.

Matt's 4 May statement:
That the last to arrive at the restaurant was the couple David and Fiona. That the latter arrived at the restaurant at around 9pm.

That around 9.05pm, the interviewee went to the area of the apartments.



The collective timeline:

2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats' windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

If....if....the man leaving the table at 9.30 was Gerry and not Oldfield and Gerry had found Madeleine missing that would certainly explain Madeleine being called quietly. It would also explain why Oldfield's recollection of the check was such a pig's ear.

[Carana]

If....if....the man leaving the table at 9.30 was Gerry and not Oldfield and Gerry had found Madeleine missing that would certainly explain Madeleine being called quietly. It would also explain why Oldfield's recollection of the check was such a pig's ear.

Why is Matt's recollection a pig's ear?

I'd agree that a few details don't seem accurate, but I don't find anything that would make me suspect he'd never checked. I don't think I've found anything more than the 3 below:

Rog: he mentioned having a look at books on a bookshelf - but it was actually a buffet with books on top.

4 May:
He seemed to remember two windows, but there was only one, sliding one. He may have got mixed up with someone else's flat, possibly his own.

He states that the bedroom has two windows. The twins occupy two cots placed in the middle of the room and Madeleine occupies a bed pushed against the wall, facing the wall which has the two windows that look out onto the outside of the complex.

10 May:
He only talked about one window in this one, but that he remembered the curtains as some shade of green, when they were blue and white. Depending on the light source(s), they may well have appeared more green than blue.

He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed but could not determine if the window was closed or open. Concerning the external blinds he clarifies that he did not see if it was closed or open. He recalls having thought that in that bedroom there was more brightness than there was in his daughter's room (where the external blinds were always fully closed), adding to have had the feeling that that light was coming from the outside - making the point that both were turned in the same direction.

Why would the entire group collude to swap in Matt for Gerry at 9:30? Particularly when any of the Tapas staff could have noticed who'd got up or who was still sitting at the table?

[Brietta]

Bear in mind that that is his recollection of what his wife vaguely remembered. I haven't come across a statement by her.



At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things,

snip

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****.

snip

My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance". OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn't see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing "Madeleine, Madeleine" and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

Some possibilities:

a) She did hear someone calling Madeleine before Kate's check (but there's nothing in the files that would substantiate that).

b) She heard someone calling someone else and thought it might have been Madeleine that she heard.

c) She heard someone calling Madeleine but once people were out looking for her and Steve got muddled about when exactly that was. One reason I think this might be the case is that he said that at 8:30 all the T9 were sitting at their table - but they weren't all there until nearly 9pm. If his timing was out by 20-25 minutes (i.e., they left the Tapas later than he'd remembered), she could well have heard someone calling her (one of the Tapas, or OC staff) just after 10pm. I've copied some of the statements, but IMO the collective timeline is probably more accurate.

Fiona's 4 May statement:
She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.

David's 4 May statement:
Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm. According to what he remembers, when they arrived, all the members of the group were present, apart from the children, who were in bed.

Matt's 4 May statement:
That the last to arrive at the restaurant was the couple David and Fiona. That the latter arrived at the restaurant at around 9pm.

That around 9.05pm, the interviewee went to the area of the apartments.



The collective timeline:

2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats' windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

I would go with option (c)as being the most likely scenario.

c) She heard someone calling Madeleine but once people were out looking for her and Steve got muddled about when exactly that was. One reason I think this might be the case is that he said that at 8:30 all the T9 were sitting at their table - but they weren't all there until nearly 9pm. If his timing was out by 20-25 minutes (i.e., they left the Tapas later than he'd remembered), she could well have heard someone calling her (one of the Tapas, or OC staff) just after 10pm. I've copied some of the statements, but IMO the collective timeline is probably more accurate.

That opinion is reinforced by the fact that the couple were together on their return home.  If she heard someone calling, isn't it odd that he didn't hear it too?

[Carana]

I would go with option (c)as being the most likely scenario.

c) She heard someone calling Madeleine but once people were out looking for her and Steve got muddled about when exactly that was. One reason I think this might be the case is that he said that at 8:30 all the T9 were sitting at their table - but they weren't all there until nearly 9pm. If his timing was out by 20-25 minutes (i.e., they left the Tapas later than he'd remembered), she could well have heard someone calling her (one of the Tapas, or OC staff) just after 10pm. I've copied some of the statements, but IMO the collective timeline is probably more accurate.

That opinion is reinforced by the fact that the couple were together on their return home.  If she heard someone calling, isn't it odd that he didn't hear it too?

Dunno. Sometimes others see or hear things that I don't or vice versa.

Someone simply calling out might not have stood out at the time  (and it was just a vague recollection) - as opposed to, e.g., the screech of an ambulance or a helicopter.

[Admin]

Yesterdays warnings as to inappropriate posting appears to have been lost on some members so I have instructed moderators to apply maximum sanctions against any member who continues to flaunt the forum rules. There will be no appeal against these sanctions.  In the worst cases the appropriate account will be deleted permanently.

No further warning will be given!

Admin

[faithlilly]

Why is Matt's recollection a pig's ear?

I'd agree that a few details don't seem accurate, but I don't find anything that would make me suspect he'd never checked. I don't think I've found anything more than the 3 below:

Rog: he mentioned having a look at books on a bookshelf - but it was actually a buffet with books on top.

4 May:
He seemed to remember two windows, but there was only one, sliding one. He may have got mixed up with someone else's flat, possibly his own.

He states that the bedroom has two windows. The twins occupy two cots placed in the middle of the room and Madeleine occupies a bed pushed against the wall, facing the wall which has the two windows that look out onto the outside of the complex.

10 May:
He only talked about one window in this one, but that he remembered the curtains as some shade of green, when they were blue and white. Depending on the light source(s), they may well have appeared more green than blue.

He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed but could not determine if the window was closed or open. Concerning the external blinds he clarifies that he did not see if it was closed or open. He recalls having thought that in that bedroom there was more brightness than there was in his daughter's room (where the external blinds were always fully closed), adding to have had the feeling that that light was coming from the outside - making the point that both were turned in the same direction.

Why would the entire group collude to swap in Matt for Gerry at 9:30? Particularly when any of the Tapas staff could have noticed who'd got up or who was still sitting at the table?

The tapas waiters, being busy, would only have noticed that a man was missing not who. Reading their statements you can see that they had very little idea who was who.

If the McCanns had arrived at 8.30 the next check would have been at 9 . According to DW in her first statement ( always the most reliable ) she didn't see Oldfied so it is possible that it was Gerry did that check and it was at this point that he saw Jez ( Jez couldn't narrow the time down to any slimmer than a 30 minute window ). Jez said Gerry was acting normally and if Gerry had simply listened at the children's door, as Oldfield claims he himself did, he would have had no idea that Madeleine was not in her bed. Gerry then checks properly at 9.30 and finds Madeleine missing. Mrs Carpenter hears Gerry calling for Madeleine while searching.

I'm not saying it did happen like this just that it IMO is possible. Why, if it did happen like this, the other tapas friends colluded I suppose we will only ever know when the full picture of that night is revealed.

[jassi]

This may not be the right place, so apologies in advance.

IF Jane had done her visit at 9.15, why did Russell need to do another visit at 9.30 ?
If daughter was ill when seen by Jane, why did she leave & return to the Tapas ?
If she wasn't ill, why should Russel go 15 minutes later?