When was the door shut? David Payne. Rules out wandering off.

[Eleanor]

No in the locks at PdL I believe the pull lever only activated the the latch bolt and the key activated the deadlock bolt.
The purpose of a key operated deadbolt is to stop burglars exiting via the deadlocked doors, so they fail in their purpose if they can be unlocked without a key.

"Some people do lock the deadbolt when they’re at home but this is not advised because if there’s an emergency you can’t get out of the property quickly. If you do want to lock a deadbolt, you should have a key in the back of the deadbolt to give you an easy exit.

A common mistake people make with deadbolts is to leave a key in the back of the lock when they leave the property and then key-locking the deadbolt from the outside. If someone breaks in to the property through another door or window they can easily unlock the deadbolt and exit the property with all your belongings." https://www.realestate.com.au/advice/deadlatch-deadbolt-whats-difference/

Sorry, but you are wrong.

[Robittybob1]

It is, from outside.  From inside you just pull it.  Could a four year old do that?

Yes IMO I'm sure she could, being a clever girl.

[Eleanor]

Then you are confusing me for why did you say "Dead Locks on these locks can be opened from inside.  Anyone who thinks otherwise has lost their marbles.

Until recently i was dealing with a Holiday Let that had the self same lock.  I could get out but no one could get in."
Are you now saying they could get in if they had a key?

Of course they could.  That's why people have keys.

[Eleanor]

Yes IMO I'm sure she could, being a clever girl.

This is what we should be debating, and not some nonsense of a perfectly acceptable locking system, albeit different from UK or New Zealand.

These locks are never going to keep someone trapped inside a house.  Just think about it for a minute.

[sadie]

Maybe Eleanor never uses the second lock or deadlock?  At OC, you have to turn the key twice to achieve deadlock.

Are you sure of that John?

Cos I thought pulling the door closed created a locked situation from outside  ...  and just one turn of the key acheived deadlock

[sadie]

Their method was not a solution to the problem.  it would have to be a very old fashioned lock for the key to activate the same barrel.  The key would then need to be shaped  with a degree of symmetry like the old Legge keys or as in the pic "Union" keys. 

I don’t think that you are right Rob about the type of key for the front door.   There are other photographs that show that this type of key was used, but this one is the clearest and hopefully should suffice.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
-snip-
But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key" - and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
Supporting the theory that the kidnap could be an inside job, he added: "I would say it is most likely there is at least one other key in circulation as most locks come with at least two spares when they are cut. But there are not many keys aroun like this one."  -snip-

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/notwkey.jpg


IMO the key in the picture has probably been forged which would make a very strong key.  A cast lead copy-key could readily be made of it, but would be maleable and much less strong.  It would probably only suffice for an odd use.... but that is all it would be needed for

[Robittybob1]

I don’t think that you are right Rob about the type of key for the front door.   There are other photographs that show that this type of key was used, but this one is the clearest and hopefully should suffice.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id21.htm
-snip-
But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key" - and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
Supporting the theory that the kidnap could be an inside job, he added: "I would say it is most likely there is at least one other key in circulation as most locks come with at least two spares when they are cut. But there are not many keys aroun like this one."  -snip-

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/notwkey.jpg


IMO the key in the picture has probably been forged which would make a very strong key.  A cast lead copy-key could readily be made of it, but would be maleable and much less strong.  It would probably only suffice for an odd use.... but that is all it would be needed for

I'm not saying they had old fashioned keys Sadie.  I accept they had those 4 sided keys which would in all truth be hard to cast.  So did the abductors have a full set of these keys so that no matter which apartment the McCanns were assigned to they had a key?  Or did they just make it up that week?
When did the key get copied?

[Brietta]

I'm not saying they had old fashioned keys Sadie.  I accept they had those 4 sided keys which would in all truth be hard to cast.  So did the abductors have a full set of these keys so that no matter which apartment the McCanns were assigned to they had a key?  Or did they just make it up that week?
When did the key get copied?

There had been two burglaries in the block in the previous weeks.  One successful and one not.  It was thought a key had been used in at least one.

Snip
But there was no sign of forced entry at the second floor apartment and police called to the scene told the middle-aged book-keeper that they believed someone with a key was the most likely suspect, sparking concerns about security at the complex.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/portuguese-police-to-re-examine-burglaries-at-19-0-t956.html

If the means of entry was using a key ... why might they not have had a key to the McCann apartment?

[Miss Taken Identity]

There had been two burglaries in the block in the previous weeks.  One successful and one not.  It was thought a key had been used in at least one.

Snip
But there was no sign of forced entry at the second floor apartment and police called to the scene told the middle-aged book-keeper that they believed someone with a key was the most likely suspect, sparking concerns about security at the complex.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/portuguese-police-to-re-examine-burglaries-at-19-0-t956.html

If the means of entry was using a key ... why might they not have had a key to the McCann apartment?

why might they not have had a key to the McCann apartment?
Don't you remember? because the parents claimed they the shutters were jemmied, the window was open and the curtains were whoosing all over the place- which made the mother convinced that her daughter was abducted and explained this entry exit to the police.

When the police investigated this absurd story(all over every news outlet) it was changed to, well maybe they used a key?  well maybe why bother when a perfectly good door was left unlocked is why.

Are the supporters now suggesting they do not accept Kates story about the shutters/window and curtains?

[sadie]

I'm not saying they had old fashioned keys Sadie.  I accept they had those 4 sided keys which would in all truth be hard to cast.  So did the abductors have a full set of these keys so that no matter which apartment the McCanns were assigned to they had a key?  Or did they just make it up that week?
When did the key get copied?

They wouldn't be difficult to cast in lead Rob.  Given the right coditions of a massive heat availability to melt the iron, they wouldn't be difficult to cast in iron either, then they would last longer, tho they would be very brittle.

I think lead castings could be done easily at home.  Iron castings would need a foundry really, but then wouldn't be difficulteither IMO.

I worked in a foundry for two months as part of my design engineer training, and did everything from Pattern making, to core making, to ramming up the sand mould, to actually pouring the red hot, sparking molten metal.  I also worked in the metallurgy lab there, testing to distruction the propertrties of the various materials used.

They were rough and ready, but the sweetest bunch of men there that I have ever met.  I loved to watch them cooking their bacon breakfasts on the back of their shovels over this emormous furnace.

What amazing experiences I had just because, for a woman, I chose an unusual career.  I was so lucky to mix with all types from labourer to MD /owner Sir ............ and I liked them all.

I think that Eleanor, too, chose a different unusual career and had amazing experiences.  She was very skilled.

[Alice Purjorick]

There had been two burglaries in the block in the previous weeks.  One successful and one not.  It was thought a key had been used in at least one.

Snip
But there was no sign of forced entry at the second floor apartment and police called to the scene told the middle-aged book-keeper that they believed someone with a key was the most likely suspect, sparking concerns about security at the complex.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/portuguese-police-to-re-examine-burglaries-at-19-0-t956.html

If the means of entry was using a key ... why might they not have had a key to the McCann apartment?

Was it ever proven that a key was used or do we remain at the "it was thought" stage?. It was thought by whom ? and for what reason ? would be two good questions in that connexion.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Was it ever proven that a key was used or do we remain at the "it was thought" stage?. It was thought by whom ? and for what reason ? would be two good questions in that connexion.

Yes the supporters are still at the 'it was thought' stage and it was invented by one or more of them to absolve the parents of any responsibility of leaving three children in an unlocked apartment. And to move away from Kate and her  'I knew right away' story which doesn't hold any credibility what so ever. In fact the Police investigating were of the opinion that this was staged for their benefit.

[sadie]

why might they not have had a key to the McCann apartment?
Don't you remember? because the parents claimed they the shutters were jemmied, the window was open and the curtains were whoosing all over the place- which made the mother convinced that her daughter was abducted and explained this entry exit to the police.

When the police investigated this absurd story(all over every news outlet) it was changed to, well maybe they used a key?  well maybe why bother when a perfectly good door was left unlocked is why.

Are the supporters now suggesting they do not accept Kates story about the shutters/window and curtains?

Speaking for myself, I totally accept what Kate said about the window being open, the shutters raised and the curtains whooshing.

What is more, I can understand that in the panic of the moment conclusions might have been made about why the window, shutters were open.

... and upon thinking about it more deeply and rationally, Kate and Gerry would have changed their ideas as to the way that Madeleine vanished

[sadie]

Was it ever proven that a key was used or do we remain at the "it was thought" stage?. It was thought by whom ? and for what reason ? would be two good questions in that connexion.

We've gone thru all that several times Alice.  Please dont start if off again.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Speaking for myself, I totally accept what Kate said about the window being open, the shutters raised and the curtains whooshing.

What is more, I can understand that in the panic of the moment conclusions might have been made about why the window, shutters were open.

... and upon thinking about it more deeply and rationally, Kate and Gerry would have changed their ideas as to the way that Madeleine vanished

'Kate and Gerry would have changed their ideas as to the way that Madeleine vanished'  Yes,indeed. Because when challenged on what they said, which didn't seem to fit properly, they changed their ideas... hmmmmm

So, you call them ideas I call them stories we should just shake hands and accept we do not agree on this particular issue.