Author Topic: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!  (Read 25918 times)

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Offline faithlilly

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2018, 10:34:57 AM »
The shutter is I believe relatively noisy in operation, whether that is a squeak or not is entirely open to debate.

However there is a saying "festina lente" which is interpreted in English as "more haste, less speed" which in my opinion covers nefarious activities such as stealing a child.

Apologies I meant shutter and with squeaky I was being generous as the noise made by raising it is far louder.

As to the second part of your post I have literally no idea how that relates to our current scenario. It is simply common sense that an abductor will want to get in and out of the building housing the child as quickly as possible.

The scenario being put forward is that the abductor entered the room before Gerry's check and when Gerry appeared he hid in a wardrobe in the couple's bedroom or the bathroom. His accomplice was also standing by the window. The problems with this are :

 a) When entering the property the abductor would either have gone through the patio doors and straight to the children's bedroom or had a key and came in through the main door and accessed the children's bedroom that way. The first he would have know of Gerry's check was when the patio doors opened therefore  being in the children's bedroom when Gerry appeared and Gerry, once in the apartment, having a clear view of the children's bedroom door, how did the abductor get out of the bedroom to hide elsewhere?

b) If the abductor and his accomplice had been watching the group they would know that apart from The McCanns the rest of the group when checking went by the McCann children's bedroom window. Do you really think they'd hang about that window if there could be someone walking by at any second ?

c) And lastly is it really feasible that an abductor who has almost been caught abducting a child will risk being caught again by opening a noisy shutter to communicate with an accomplice outside of the bedroom window, doubling the time he remains in the apartment and therefore the risk of getting caught ? Wouldn't t he just lift the child and talk to the accomplice once he was outside and clear ?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 10:44:28 AM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline barrier

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2018, 10:39:53 AM »
If he didn't look then surely there is always the possibility that unknown to him  - she may not have been there. 

IMO

The possibility is that she was also there at that time.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Benice

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2018, 10:49:07 AM »
The possibility is that she was also there at that time.

I agree - both are possibilities. imo
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2018, 11:22:43 AM »
The Metropolitan Police, I have frequently been informed are the 'professionals' and the 'experts'. I'm told that abduction must be the crime which occurred because The Met say so. People tell me that The Met know more than I do and I should accept what they say; except, it seems, when it comes to Tannerman.

When it comes to Tannerman The Met's fans seem prepared to doubt their word and continue to cling to their belief that he existed and he was hiding in 5A at 9.05.

Operation Grange went to a lot of trouble to find Crecheman, photograph him and his child's clothes, suggest that the alleged abduction occurred after 9.30 and he wasn't involved. They didn't need to do that, they could have just added Smithman to their appeal and left it at that.

I think those who have praised The Met so fulsomely should accept that they had a reason for eliminating Tannerman, even if that reason isn't entirely clear. After all, as I keep being told, they probably have more information than the armchair detectives have access to.
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Offline Carana

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2018, 11:23:51 AM »
Apologies I meant shutter and with squeaky I was being generous as the noise made by raising it is far louder.

As to the second part of your post I have literally no idea how that relates to our current scenario. It is simply common sense that an abductor will want to get in and out of the building housing the child as quickly as possible.

The scenario being put forward is that the abductor entered the room before Gerry's check and when Gerry appeared he hid in a wardrobe in the couple's bedroom or the bathroom. His accomplice was also standing by the window. The problems with this are :

 a) When entering the property the abductor would either have gone through the patio doors and straight to the children's bedroom or had a key and came in through the main door and accessed the children's bedroom that way. The first he would have know of Gerry's check is when the patio doors opened therefore  being in the children's bedroom when Gerry appeared and Gerry, once in the apartment, having a clear view of the children's bedroom door, how did the abductor get out of the bedroom to hide elsewhere?

b) If the abductor and his accomplice had been watching the group they would know that apart from The McCanns the rest of the group when checking went by the McCann children's bedroom window. Do you really think they'd hang about that window if there could be someone walking by at any second ?

c) And lastly is it really feasible that an abductor who has almost been caught abducting a child will risk being caught again by opening a noisy shutter to communicate with an accomplice outside of the bedroom window, doubling the time he remains in the apartment and therefore the risk of getting caught ? Wouldn't t he just lift the child and talk to the accomplice once he was outside and clear ?

Hmmm. I can agree with a few points.

From your point a) :

- Hiding in the parents' wardrobe isn't impossible (hiding in the children's one seems much more unlikely due to the cot). On the other hand, a parent popping back on a chilly, windy night might have wanted to go to the wardrobe to get an extra jacket. Back on the other side, would a burglar or even a burglar/predator take any time to think of that? Or would someone like that just take the chance that it was just a quick child check and off again?

- In this scenario, there's no way of knowing exactly where this person could have been upon hearing or seeing someone turning up. Did the bottom or child gate squeak? If so, that would have provided seconds prior to the faffing of sliding the verandah door, pushing aside the curtain and sliding it back again. The person may not have been in the kids' bedroom at that point in any case.

Point b) :

No, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the rest of the group would pass anywhere near the kids' bedroom window, aside from Matt's listening check. Yes, they would have walked up the road, but there was a huge tree, it was dark, and they'd have been focused on their entrance which didn't involve walking along that little path towards their flat.

Point c) :

Lifting the shutter to simply tell an accomplice about the delay seems a little improbable to me, as well.

- A possibility is that if he'd entered via a key, lifting the blind and opening the window could have been a deliberate red herring;

- A panic reaction as a potential escape route for some as yet unknown reason.

- I tend to agree with Sadie that entering via the bedroom window seems unlikely - if the person was quite big.

There are other possibilities, though. Some burglaries involve using children (or very small adults) to get in. If that were the case, it could have been a point of entry, and the small person could have then opened the door.


Finally, yes, I've considered that Kate could have lifted the blinds and opened the window herself. Not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but in a panic to draw an emergency reaction to the fact that she'd disappeared.

Amaral and a pal (Moita Flores?) had said that her prints were found in an "opening position". I checked on that, and I wasn't able to find anything to substantiate it, beyond the fact that only her prints (those with sufficient compatible points) were found on the inside of the window, but that's not at all incompatible with touching the window and poking her face out of the window.



Offline Robittybob1

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2018, 11:24:47 AM »
Some people decided it was a possibility long before Scotland Yard got involved.  And it explains why Jane Tanner saw the child being carried so soon after Gerry left the appartment.
I think the point is JT could see a person carrying a child regardless of the time Gerry left the apartment.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2018, 11:28:26 AM »
With SY announcing that Tannerman is almost certainly some one who was in the exact same area then the Tanner sighting has no bearing,so who ever decided before SY got involved decided for the wrong reasons.
So what was wrong with their reasoning.  I see what you mean now, if he was never there that is the ultimate reason they are wrong.  Then Tannerman becomes someone else carrying a child.  That is what Jane wanted in the first place.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2018, 11:31:17 AM »
Yes but with the benefit of the hindsight some wish to continue with a possible myth,when Redwood clearly says that the Tanner sighting is almost certainly not having any thing to do with it,ergo he wasn't the one who would have been in 5a,if there was indeed any one there.
That is another point there could be someone else other than Tannerman!
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2018, 11:32:45 AM »
Apologies I meant shutter and with squeaky I was being generous as the noise made by raising it is far louder.

As to the second part of your post I have literally no idea how that relates to our current scenario. It is simply common sense that an abductor will want to get in and out of the building housing the child as quickly as possible.

The scenario being put forward is that the abductor entered the room before Gerry's check and when Gerry appeared he hid in a wardrobe in the couple's bedroom or the bathroom. His accomplice was also standing by the window. The problems with this are :

 a) When entering the property the abductor would either have gone through the patio doors and straight to the children's bedroom or had a key and came in through the main door and accessed the children's bedroom that way. The first he would have know of Gerry's check was when the patio doors opened therefore  being in the children's bedroom when Gerry appeared and Gerry, once in the apartment, having a clear view of the children's bedroom door, how did the abductor get out of the bedroom to hide elsewhere?

b) If the abductor and his accomplice had been watching the group they would know that apart from The McCanns the rest of the group when checking went by the McCann children's bedroom window. Do you really think they'd hang about that window if there could be someone walking by at any second ?

c) And lastly is it really feasible that an abductor who has almost been caught abducting a child will risk being caught again by opening a noisy shutter to communicate with an accomplice outside of the bedroom window, doubling the time he remains in the apartment and therefore the risk of getting caught ? Wouldn't t he just lift the child and talk to the accomplice once he was outside and clear ?

We have gone full circle Faithlilly. Do you remember our conversations about "believing six daft things before breakfast helps before coming in here?"   @)(++(*
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2018, 11:42:32 AM »
Not because she wasn't there,because he never looked for Madeleine,world of difference.
There seems to be a series of choices
Did Matt look Yes or No?

Did Matt tell the full story Yes or No?
was Madeleine in the apartment, Yes or No?

was Tannerman in the apartment, Yes or No?

was Crecheman real, Yes or No?

was Tannerman and crecheman the same, Yes or No?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Benice

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2018, 11:53:37 AM »
The Metropolitan Police, I have frequently been informed are the 'professionals' and the 'experts'. I'm told that abduction must be the crime which occurred because The Met say so. People tell me that The Met know more than I do and I should accept what they say; except, it seems, when it comes to Tannerman.

When it comes to Tannerman The Met's fans seem prepared to doubt their word and continue to cling to their belief that he existed and he was hiding in 5A at 9.05.

Operation Grange went to a lot of trouble to find Crecheman, photograph him and his child's clothes, suggest that the alleged abduction occurred after 9.30 and he wasn't involved. They didn't need to do that, they could have just added Smithman to their appeal and left it at that.

I think those who have praised The Met so fulsomely should accept that they had a reason for eliminating Tannerman, even if that reason isn't entirely clear. After all, as I keep being told, they probably have more information than the armchair detectives have access to.


Not at all.   I accept SY's conclusion that it is 'almost certain' that Tannerman was Crecheman.   However, 'almost certain' does not mean 100% certain - which IMO is how sceptics are interpreting it.    Whilst there is still a small element of doubt - it cannot be ignored and treated as if it didn't exist.

As previously stated, I have never been able to make up my mind whether or not an intruder was in 5A whilst Gerry was there.

My opinion of our police is that they are predominantly dedicated, intelligent decent people who joined the police force because they wanted to catch 'the baddies' and make a difference, and have been highly trained to do just that.    IMO it is very sad that some people would prefer to 'question' the dedication/ professionalism etc of our police force rather than accept that they know what they are talking about and had extremely good reasons for eliminating McCanns and their friends from their investigations.   
AIMHO

Must go out now.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Admin

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #116 on: January 19, 2018, 12:33:48 PM »
A reminder to all posters that appropriate language should be used when commenting.  Far too many posts still require moderator intervention so please consider carefully what you post.  It is always useful to deploy the preview option before making your comments public.

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« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 12:39:32 PM by Admin »

Offline barrier

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #117 on: January 19, 2018, 12:55:32 PM »
There seems to be a series of choices
Did Matt look Yes or No?
If he said he did why doubt him?

Did Matt tell the full story Yes or No?
As above
was Madeleine in the apartment, Yes or No?

No confirmation either way.

was Tannerman in the apartment, Yes or No?
Redwood believes not

was Crecheman real, Yes or No?
If Redwood says the McCann are not suspects,why should there doubt over Crecheman

was Tannerman and crecheman the same, Yes or No?

Possibly,either way SY aren't interested.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #118 on: January 19, 2018, 01:23:57 PM »
No, I know. Poor guy, I expect he's been beating himself up at not having checked that all three were present, but there was seemingly nothing abnormal (all was quiet) and he'd just popped in to see if there was any noise. No reason to think that a child could have disappeared by the time of his check.

As it stands, no one knows whether she was still asleep in her bed at that point or not.

Matt knew something odd was up as he said in his rog 2008 interview. He was puzzled when Gerry went to check after he told him everything was fine.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 01:45:00 AM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room!
« Reply #119 on: January 19, 2018, 01:28:35 PM »
We have gone full circle Faithlilly. Do you remember our conversations about "believing six daft things before breakfast helps before coming in here?"   @)(++(*

An abductor hiding in the apartment moving doors between checks beats them all.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.