Author Topic: Where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking? Ideas solutions  (Read 7309 times)

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Offline Faithlilly

Jane & Gerry, Madeleiene was Here:

https://youtu.be/na4aBr5PTYY?t=1m21s

I have often wondered why the voice over didn't mention Wilkins statements. That would have put a whole different perspective on Gerry's claim.
Moral Guilt
Detractors of the work of our British Police in bringing criminals to justice generally ignore the important distinction between moral proof and legal evidence of guilt. In not a few cases that are popularly classed with 'unsolved mysteries of crime,' the offender is known, but evidence is wanting. If, for example, in- a recent murder case of special notoriety and interest,* certain human remains had not been found in a cellar, a great crime would have been catalogued among `Police failures'; and yet, even without the evidence which sent the murderer to the gallows, the moral proof of his guilt would have been full and clear.
Robert Anderson

Offline pathfinder73

"During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire Op Task team."

"As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Faithlilly

"During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire Op Task team."

"As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

Jez's recollections were tainted neither by trauma, the bonds of friendship or fear and therefore are bound to be the most clearly remembered and definitive IMO.
Moral Guilt
Detractors of the work of our British Police in bringing criminals to justice generally ignore the important distinction between moral proof and legal evidence of guilt. In not a few cases that are popularly classed with 'unsolved mysteries of crime,' the offender is known, but evidence is wanting. If, for example, in- a recent murder case of special notoriety and interest,* certain human remains had not been found in a cellar, a great crime would have been catalogued among `Police failures'; and yet, even without the evidence which sent the murderer to the gallows, the moral proof of his guilt would have been full and clear.
Robert Anderson

Offline pathfinder73

Jez's recollections were tainted neither by trauma, the bonds of friendship or fear and therefore are bound to be the most clearly remembered and definitive IMO.

During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire Op Task team.

Several weeks later, Jeremy received calls from Gerry in relation to gaining permission from him to use his name in a portfolio of evidence being compiled by an organization employed by the McCanns. They were very persistent and made several attempts to contact him both at work and at home. They had no objection to being included but were concerned as to the method being used. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

"During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire Op Task team."

"As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

Jez's statement is quite telling... He didn't seem too keen to become too involved after Maddie disappeared, and was annoyed at being pursued and in the manner in which he was being pursued.

Jez and Gerry saw no one not even JT.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:41:16 PM by Angelo222 »
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Online G-Unit

I was surprised Silvia and the GNR PJ or whoever was there, didn't go with Jane to understand where she was when she saw the man.   If we knew where Jane was when she saw Tannerman we could find out how soon after passing the guys that did this.  We could back calculate where Jez and Gerry were  further down the hill.

Jane consistently says she was 5-10 metres away from the man she saw. That puts her either level with the higher end of the block 6 car park entrance or level with the lower end of it. The problem is that changing her opinion of where the men were talking should have changed her distance from the 'abductor', if she saw him just after passing them as she said.

He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm

Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

In her rog interview she has moved them to the alleyway area;

I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway.  I think sort of”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child.....

it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.

 4078    “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”

Reply    “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.

 4078    “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
 it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.

 4078    “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”

Reply    “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

 

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Offline Miss Taken Identity

Jane consistently says she was 5-10 metres away from the man she saw. That puts her either level with the higher end of the block 6 car park entrance or level with the lower end of it. The problem is that changing her opinion of where the men were talking should have changed her distance from the 'abductor', if she saw him just after passing them as she said.

He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm

Confronted, she demonstrated the distance at which the man with the child had passed her, and that was gauged to be about 5 metres.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

In her rog interview she has moved them to the alleyway area;

I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway.  I think sort of”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child.....

it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.

 4078    “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”

Reply    “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.

 4078    “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
 it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.

 4078    “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”

Reply    “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Yeah it is up there with the moving door and whooshing curtains.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Alice Purjorick

It has been challenging on the forum dealing with false memories (thanks to Alice for the inspiration)  and the Tapas 9 agreed timeline, with Matt and the others agreeing to one probably open gate and other possibly closed gate. 
Then the thread about an intruder inside the apartment when Gerry was doing his check.
All those relate to Jane's observation of a man carrying a child.  Jane says she had just passed Jez and Gerry talking but neither of those two saw her.

So what I would like to now is once and for all time determine where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking.

"G-unit defined the problem earlier:
2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement bring with him a baby carriage with his youngest child. He crossed the road in JEZ's direction
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm"   

Where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking?  Ideas solutions please?

I fear you are on a hiding to nothing there unless you can dig up an independent witness where the police have been unable to do so [unless of course that IW was one of the burgulahs interviewed].
One protagonist says on the east side the other protagonist says on the wext side; not alot of difference.
If you go by distances quoted in statements it's all over the oche. If you compare with features it becomes a little clearer. Why does someone not plot it out instead of pontificating?
This Inquiry concludes that loose, premature unsubstantiated and incorrect reportage maximised speculation and created an uncontrolled reporting frenzy

Offline Robittybob1

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Yeah it is up there with the moving door and whooshing curtains.
Absolutely true then IYO?
What are you doing to find Madeleine?
https://www.youcaring.com/madeleinemccann-1080869

Offline Robittybob1

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Well I hope to be convincing if it is at all possible.  Are there any here who think the three-way meeting never occurred?
No one is saying "it never occurred, it never happened" . I thought Amaral was of the opinion it never happened Jane in his opinion sees the man on her way back to the Tapas.  I think we can discount that shall we?
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Offline jassi

No one is saying "it never occurred, it never happened" . I thought Amaral was of the opinion it never happened Jane in his opinion sees the man on her way back to the Tapas.  I think we can discount that shall we?

I think we can discount Tannerman altogether.  8(0(*
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Offline Robittybob1

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I think we can discount Tannerman altogether.  8(0(*
That is more the SY view where he was real, but irrelevant.  Where as Amaral's POV as in the O Enigma interview it was more like my theory in some way, Tannerman an exercise in disinformation, different place different time.  The only evidence of this concept is that Jane's observation was written down by Russell with a question mark after it.  He thought it was questionable to begin with?  Then later puts it in a bordered text box.   That is showing some sort of thought process going on there IMO.
If the text box is the 2nd one that is "upgraded" in the mind of the author IMO.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?
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Online Brietta

The forum has discussed this issue a few times.  There was a particularly good thread where between them, John and Sadie came up with some pretty good illustrations of where the three on the street were standing and walking.

Worth checking out.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1249.msg35271#msg35271

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7805.msg366375#msg366375
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline jassi

That is more the SY view where he was real, but irrelevant.  Where as Amaral's POV as in the O Enigma interview it was more like my theory in some way, Tannerman an exercise in disinformation, different place different time.  The only evidence of this concept is that Jane's observation was written down by Russell with a question mark after it.  He thought it was questionable to begin with?  Then later puts it in a bordered text box.   That is showing some sort of thought process going on there IMO.
If the text box is the 2nd one that is "upgraded" in the mind of the author IMO.

Same end result. Tanner's intervention resulted in several years of misdirected effort by the Find Madeleine Fund.

Of course     IMO    *%^^&


Please remember to indicate when you are stating your opinion as in the above post, doing so now will get rid of this notification.  Thank you
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:36:39 PM by jassi »
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Offline Angelo222

Jez's statement is quite telling... He didn't seem too keen to become too involved after Maddie disappeared, and was annoyed at being pursued and in the manner in which he was being pursued.

Jez and Gerry saw no one not even JT.

My understanding was that Jez wasn't too keen to take part in a reconstruction either, apologies if I've got that wrong.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

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