Author Topic: Where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking? Ideas solutions  (Read 8426 times)

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Online Robittybob1

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My understanding was that Jez wasn't too keen to take part in a reconstruction either, apologies if I've got that wrong.
He never flatly refused, but made a heap of excuses.
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Offline slartibartfast

My understanding was that Jez wasn't too keen to take part in a reconstruction either, apologies if I've got that wrong.

There seem to have a number of witnesses who felt unduly pressured by the team.
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Offline G-Unit

Jeremy Wilkins repeats his evidence and gives measurements which make it quite clear he wasn't at the entrance to the pathway;

As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

 I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
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Online Robittybob1

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Jeremy Wilkins repeats his evidence and gives measurements which make it quite clear he wasn't at the entrance to the pathway;

As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

 I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
That could be a false memory.   What was his first recollection of this? 
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Offline jassi

That could be a false memory.  What was his first recollection of this?

Why should it be?
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Online Robittybob1

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Why should it be?
It would be a matter of knowing what Jez had been doing and saying over the last months between the event and the statement.  I have come to accept all memories could be false.  You don't know which of your memories are false for they always feel real.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:48:04 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Why should it be?

So that the "desired condition" narrative fits?
It's okay to reinvent the wheel, but only when you understand how the current wheel works.

Offline sadie

Jeremy Wilkins repeats his evidence and gives measurements which make it quite clear he wasn't at the entrance to the pathway;

As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

 I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

I cant be bothered to yet again go throught the other statements made by Jez and Jane and AMARAL that show that Gerry misremembered where the chat took place.   This, of course, was adjacent to the alleyway at the back of 5A

You obviously have a reason for trying to nullify those statements ... and in AMARALS case the video he did showing where Gerry and Jez stood chatting. 

Can you not accept that the False Memory Syndrome probably caused Gerry to misremember?  That quite likely he set across the road and met Jez in the middle, but a vehicle came and they backed on to the kerb / pavement by the alleyway. 

Can you not accept that as a likelyhood, with all the other statements that generally pointed to 'in the kerb' by the alleyway.

AIMHO
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:00:06 PM by John »

Offline Faithlilly

I cant be bothered to yet again go throught the other statements made by Jez and Jane and AMARAL that show that Gerry misremembered where the chat took place.   This, of course, was adjacent to the alleyway at the back of 5A

You obviously have a reason for trying to nullify those statements ... and in AMARALS case the video he did showing where Gerry and Jez stood chatting. 

Can you not accept that the False Memory Syndrome probably caused Gerry to misremember?  That quite likely he set across the road and met Jez in the middle, but a vehicle came and they backed on to the kerb / pavement by the alleyway. 

Can you not accept that as a likelyhood, with all the other statements that generally pointed to 'in the kerb' by the alleyway.

AIMHO

Isn't Amaral a convicted perjurer who tried to convince the world that the McCanns had disposed of their daughter ? Why should we trust what he says ?

And if Gerry 'misremembered' his testimony can't be relied on either, can it ?

So that leaves Jez who, as G-Unit has posted, with cites, was very sure about where he and Gerry were and that was  with Rua Dr Agostino about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

And will you please stop making things up. Neither Jez nor Gerry mention a car forcing them back on to the pavement and you would think Jez would remember that even if Gerry has problems with his memory. Making things up in order to construct the narrative you want to be true is neither useful nor honest.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:01:17 PM by John »
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Detractors of the work of our British Police in bringing criminals to justice generally ignore the important distinction between moral proof and legal evidence of guilt. In not a few cases that are popularly classed with 'unsolved mysteries of crime,' the offender is known, but evidence is wanting. If, for example, in- a recent murder case of special notoriety and interest,* certain human remains had not been found in a cellar, a great crime would have been catalogued among `Police failures'; and yet, even without the evidence which sent the murderer to the gallows, the moral proof of his guilt would have been full and clear.
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Offline sadie

Isn't Amaral a convicted perjurer who tried to convince the world that the McCanns had disposed of their daughter ? Why should we trust what he says ?

And if Gerry 'misremembered' his testimony can't be relied on either, can it ?

So that leaves Jez who, as G-Unit has posted, with cites, was very sure about where he and Gerry were and that was  with Rua Dr Agostino about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

And will you please stop making things up. Neither Jez nor Gerry mention a car forcing them back on to the pavement and you would think Jez would remember that even if Gerry has problems with his memory. Making things up in order to construct the narrative you want to be true is neither useful nor honest.

I agree Amaral is a convicted perjurer, but your side seems to believe him implicitely.  So you are thinking that he lied in this instance, are you ?  I think he told the truth about this because both Jane and Jez have backed him up in other statements than the two "out of kilter" statements that you and Gunit choose to cherry pick.  1)  Then there are the videos showing Jane very definitely pointing to the kerb area by the alleyway corner at the back of 5A and      2)  Amarals video where he personally very definitely points to the place that the chat took place. 

Please do not forget 3)  Jezes statement describing how he met Gerry as they walked towards each other; he had just come from the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception, and     4)  Jezes deliberate marking with a cross on a map, showing where the chat took place, on the alleyway corner.

Gerry got it wrong, which was likely caused by stress and False Memory syndrome. With the easiest way to go with the push chair, was the way the push chair was pointing, and that was to the western side of the road.  They ended up mainly in the road but partly on the kerb, by the alleyway.

IMO, There is so much information pointing to this being the place they chatted.

I accept that it is my opinion that Gerry was suffering from False Memory syndrome, but he very obviously really believed it.

AIMHO
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:05:19 PM by John »

Online Robittybob1

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Jez in his first statement doesn't make it clear where he is saying he met Gerry. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm

"As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.

I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and [ censored word ] and cons and what to do with the children.

He said that as he was staying two weeks XXXXX he was staying one night' (unreadable)
I don't remember anyone else walking around with a child. The conversation lasted for about three (3) to five (5) minutes." 

I think it is our own interpretation of his statement that we assume he is talking about the steps by the patio gate.
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Online Robittybob1

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In his next statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

"He eventually made his way along Rua Dr Francisco toward the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho. At this time he was walking on the right side of the road passing the Tapas bar area to his left. He noticed the bad street lighting and although it was not completely dark there was enough light to see clearly. As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left."

So the distance from the "pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks" to "Rua Dr Agostinho." is estimated to be 15 - 20 meters whereas Google Earth measures that distance as 32 meters.  His estimates of distances are seriously out from that comparison.
The original is a typed version therefore there is the possibility of a typing error.  If the "5 meters" was meant to be "15 meters" then both Gerry and Jez would be in a similar place.

"He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry" is a classic false memory situation (from my research into that phenomenon) where someone can remember someone crossing the road  and engaging in conversation the person can think it was him who crossed the road but it was the other person.

IMO (all the rest is IMO) it is Gerry's recollection that clinches it for me for in the documentary he says about "looking up at Jez 6 foot 3".
Now is it true that Jez is 6 foot 3?  No I don't think so for Gerry would have remembered his height and over estimated it as Jez was on the foot path and Gerry on the road looking up.


 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:19:15 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Online Robittybob1

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In Jez' rogatory he is less than precise where he meets Gerry:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

"Q. From which direction Gerry travelling when you met'
From previous conversations had with Gerry, I am of the notion of the usual routine of the group in relation to checking on their children when they were in the Tapas Bar. I also was aware of the location of the McCann apartment. Naturally when I met him that night, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children. I cannot affirm if I saw him exactly leaving the apartment through the passageway, and if he was heading towards the tapas Bar."

We tend to think Jez is walking toward Rua Dr. Augustino but does he actual specify that at the time he meets Gerry?  If he was heading toward the passage way and was going to use that he may have actually being going downhill.

His next bit is rather nonspecific as well "When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar.
From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where. "
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Online Robittybob1

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Jez in his first statement say "I came out at the top road."  that is the Rua Augustino da Silva road and he mentions that before he meets Gerry so from there does he turn around and come back downhill?

To me it only makes sense if Jez is looking downhill and therefore doesn't see Tannerman passing behind him.


He must have been relatively close to the top of the hill 10 -15 meters for he says "There were no weather conditions that impacted visibility. Given the lighting and the atmospheric conditions, I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance."

But if he was 5 meters South of the alleyway the total distance to the top would be 37 meters.

To back my thesis this statement from Jez just about confirms that he was originally walking downhill.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
 "I do not know if we were face to face or side to side when this conversation occurred. As I had the pram with me I was rocking it so my son could sleep, it seems to me that I was in the downward direction, but it is possible that I was in the opposite direction.
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Offline Brietta

"From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where." J Wilkins
There is no ambiguity as far as Jes is concerned about where they met and spoke with each other ... but was the incident considered important enough for the Policia Judicairia to question Gerry about during his arguido interrogation?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm#p10p2567
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:14:50 PM by John »
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"