Where were Jez and Gerry standing when they did their talking? Ideas solutions

[Robittybob1]

"From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where." J Wilkins
There is no ambiguity as far as Jes is concerned about where they met and spoke with each other ... but was the incident considered important enough for the Policia Judicairia to question Gerry about during his arguido interrogation?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm#p10p2567

What does "pathway" mean to you?  I take it to mean footpath and I think there is a footpath on both sides of the road, so when Jez says "From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where." J Wilkins does not define which side of the road that was on, not from those words anyway.

[Brietta]

Jez in his first statement say "I came out at the top road."  that is the Rua Augustino da Silva road and he mentions that before he meets Gerry so from there does he turn around and come back downhill?

To me it only makes sense if Jez is looking downhill and therefore doesn't see Tannerman passing behind him.


He must have been relatively close to the top of the hill 10 -15 meters for he says "There were no weather conditions that impacted visibility. Given the lighting and the atmospheric conditions, I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance."

But if he was 5 meters South of the alleyway the total distance to the top would be 37 meters.

To back my thesis this statement from Jez just about confirms that he was originally walking downhill.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
 "I do not know if we were face to face or side to side when this conversation occurred. As I had the pram with me I was rocking it so my son could sleep, it seems to me that I was in the downward direction, but it is possible that I was in the opposite direction.

He was walking home to Block 4 with his son ... why would he be walking downhill in the direction of the Tapas bar if going in a homeward direction?
Gerry who was walking in that direction saw him approaching ... how did he manage that?

[slartibartfast]

IMO, the only reasons this matters to some, is that their position either supports or casts doubt on Jane’s evidence.

[Brietta]

What does "pathway" mean to you?  I take it to mean footpath and I think there is a footpath on both sides of the road, so when Jez says "From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where." J Wilkins does not define which side of the road that was on, not from those words anyway.

To me "pathway" is the lane behind Block 5. 

[Robittybob1]

"From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where." J Wilkins
There is no ambiguity as far as Jes is concerned about where they met and spoke with each other ... but was the incident considered important enough for the Policia Judicairia to question Gerry about during his arguido interrogation?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm#p10p2567

It is not in the interests of the PJ to question Gerry on points where his alibi is rock solid.  No wonder this incident is not brought up in the arguido questioning.

[G-Unit]

I cant be bothered to yet again go throught the other statements made by Jez and Jane and AMARAL that show that Gerry misremembered where the chat took place.   This, of course, was adjacent to the alleyway at the back of 5A

You obviously have a reason for trying to nullify those statements ... and in AMARALS case the video he did showing where Gerry and Jez stood chatting. 

Can you not accept that the False Memory Syndrome probably caused Gerry to misremember?  That quite likely he set across the road and met Jez in the middle, but a vehicle came and they backed on to the kerb / pavement by the alleyway. 

Can you not accept that as a likelyhood, with all the other statements that generally pointed to 'in the kerb' by the alleyway.

AIMHO

The evidence is consistently against the possibility that the men spoke by the entrance to the pathway until the rogatory interviews. Jane then completely contradicts her earlier evidence and Jes becomes very vague. As it's a year after the event that's not surprising. It's clear to me that when their memories were fresh and uncontaminated they both knew exactly where the conversation took place.

That's why I post what I do, because that's what the evidence says. I don't have any agenda or any theory which needs supporting. I'm not interested in anyone's speculations, not even yours or Amaral's.

As to 'false memory syndrome', that's just a guess. No-one knows why Gerry McCann says he was on the other side of the road, but two people say he wasn't and that's a fact.

Jane, group timeline;  JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road.
7th May Jes; I met him near the stairs....there was a gate.
5th November Jes; Gerry stood with his back to the building near the gate....pathway 5 meters to his (Jes's) left.
8th April 2008 Jes; Says he has already ' spoken to the location where we met'

[Robittybob1]

The evidence is consistently against the possibility that the men spoke by the entrance to the pathway until the rogatory interviews. Jane then completely contradicts her earlier evidence and Jes becomes very vague. As it's a year after the event that's not surprising. It's clear to me that when their memories were fresh and uncontaminated they both knew exactly where the conversation took place.

That's why I post what I do, because that's what the evidence says. I don't have any agenda or any theory which needs supporting. I'm not interested in anyone's speculations, not even yours or Amaral's.

As to 'false memory syndrome', that's just a guess. No-one knows why Gerry McCann says he was on the other side of the road, but two people say he wasn't and that's a fact.

Jane, group timeline;  JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road.
7th May Jes; I met him near the stairs....there was a gate.
5th November Jes; Gerry stood with his back to the building near the gate....pathway 5 meters to his (Jes's) left.
8th April 2008 Jes; Says he has already ' spoken to the location where we met'

if he is close enough to recognise someone on the upper road in the darkness, he can't have been outside Gerry's gate. IMO  He originally said 10 - 15 meters and that will be a position much higher up the hill from the gate.

[Robittybob1]

To me "pathway" is the lane behind Block 5.

The Tapas 7 only use the word Pathway one occasion:
"As he understood, only Gerald and Kate used the system of entering through the sliding doors, as this was easier. They stayed in the apartment closest to the pathway and there was a corridor in the back area that gave access to the stairs. The rest of the elements of the group went via the passage-way, until the corner and would enter through their front doors. When the carried out the audio checks, they would position themselves near the windows and would try to hear if noise was coming from inside or crying. "

The use of pathway here can only mean footpath along the road.

[G-Unit]

if he is close enough to recognise someone on the upper road in the darkness, he can't have been outside Gerry's gate. IMO  He originally said 10 - 15 meters and that will be a position much higher up the hill from the gate.

It wasn't dark. The McCann's 'reenactment' video gives the impression that it was, but it was actually dusk. Jes did say 10-15 meters from the top of the road, but he also said 5 meters from the pathway. As his distances are wrong (see below) all that can be deduced is that he appears to be remembering that he was nearer to the pathway than he was to the top of the road.

Distance from pathway to the top of the road according to Jes;

10 + 5 = 15 meters. He is twice as far from the top of the road as he is from the pathway.
15 + 5 = 20 meters. He is three times as far from the top of the road as he is from the pathway.

Actual distance from the pathway to the top of the road is 32 meters (approx)

So Jes was either 22 meters from the top of the road and 11 meters from the pathway or he was 24 meters from the top of the road and 8 meters from the pathway. Either way, he was very close to the gate.

 

[faithlilly]

"From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where." J Wilkins
There is no ambiguity as far as Jes is concerned about where they met and spoke with each other ... but was the incident considered important enough for the Policia Judicairia to question Gerry about during his arguido interrogation?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm#p10p2567

It was important enough for Rebelo to request a reconstruction of the incident. That speaks volumes.

[Brietta]

The evidence is consistently against the possibility that the men spoke by the entrance to the pathway until the rogatory interviews. Jane then completely contradicts her earlier evidence and Jes becomes very vague. As it's a year after the event that's not surprising. It's clear to me that when their memories were fresh and uncontaminated they both knew exactly where the conversation took place.

That's why I post what I do, because that's what the evidence says. I don't have any agenda or any theory which needs supporting. I'm not interested in anyone's speculations, not even yours or Amaral's.

As to 'false memory syndrome', that's just a guess. No-one knows why Gerry McCann says he was on the other side of the road, but two people say he wasn't and that's a fact.

Jane, group timeline;  JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road.
7th May Jes; I met him near the stairs....there was a gate.
5th November Jes; Gerry stood with his back to the building near the gate....pathway 5 meters to his (Jes's) left.
8th April 2008 Jes; Says he has already ' spoken to the location where we met'

"That's why I post what I do, because that's what the evidence says. I don't have any agenda or any theory which needs supporting."

I have never speculated that Gerry disagreed with the other two witnesses about where he was standing ... I have watched him in real time disagreeing with one of them.
What I have expressed about that is not speculation but my opinion that it does not really matter.  What matters is that the three were there and Jane Tanner claims to have seen a man carrying a child at the top of the street.

[faithlilly]

I agree Amaral is a convicted perjurer, but your side seems to believe him implicitely.  So you are thinking that he lied in this instance, are you ?  I think he told the truth about this because both Jane and Jez have backed him up in other statements than the two "out of kilter" statements that you and Gunit choose to cherry pick.  1)  Then there are the videos showing Jane very definitely pointing to the kerb area by the alleyway corner at the back of 5A and      2)  Amarals video where he personally very definitely points to the place that the chat took place. 

Please do not forget 3)  Jezes statement describing how he met Gerry as they walked towards each other; he had just come from the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception, and     4)  Jezes deliberate marking with a cross on a map, showing where the chat took place, on the alleyway corner.

Gerry got it wrong, which was likely caused by stress and False Memory syndrome. With the easiest way to go with the push chair, was the way the push chair was pointing, and that was to the western side of the road.  They ended up mainly in the road but partly on the kerb, by the alleyway.

IMO, There is so much information pointing to this being the place they chatted.

I accept that it is my opinion that Gerry was suffering from False Memory syndrome, but he very obviously really believed it.

AIMHO

The only truly independent witness in this scenario is Jez Wilkins and he has consistently ( a cross on an out of scale map doesn't count ) stated that his and Gerry's chat took place outside the gate of 5a.

7th of May statement

'I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and [ censored word ] and cons and what to do with the children.'

5th of November statement

 'He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.'

So near the stairs of the apartment not near the alleyway and absolutely no mention of a car.

[Brietta]

It was important enough for Rebelo to request a reconstruction of the incident. That speaks volumes.

Rebelo is the guy who was given the poisoned chalice of trying to introduce some order into the chaos of the Amaral investigation which apparently did not rate Jane's sighting because the GNR dogs didn't go that way and she didn't identify Murat as the man she had seen.

Rebelo in my opinion was playing catch up and trying to do what should have been done in May when all the witnesses were present and everything was fresh in their minds. The incompetence of not carrying out that diligence does indeed speak volumes.

[Robittybob1]

It was important enough for Rebelo to request a reconstruction of the incident. That speaks volumes.

I must be a bit of a sceptic for I think if they all had nothing to hide they would have been only too willing to help the McCanns clear their names. 
Imagine if they said to Rebelo "we are coming next week" would the PJ have had a way of doing the re-enactment?
Once they said they wanted to discover who rang Sky News Rachael blatantly refused to attend.  Ok was that like saying "I did it". 
Was that a real offence?   I suppose once they said "No media No Media" she shouldn't have rung, but if she had rung before she had that instruction is that an issue?  I suppose she didn't want to take the risk of being an arguida.

[Brietta]

The only truly independent witness in this scenario is Jez Wilkins and he has consistently ( a cross on an out of scale map doesn't count ) stated that his and Gerry's chat took place outside the gate of 5a.

7th of May statement

'I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and [ censored word ] and cons and what to do with the children.'

5th of November statement

 'He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.'

So near the stairs of the apartment not near the alleyway and absolutely no mention of a car.

You really do need to stop making this up Sadie.

Did he have his eyes closed and when he opened them Gerry had just materialised?  He stated specifically he assumed Gerry had exited the gate ... logic dictates he must have been beyond it when Jes saw him ... at least two or three athletic man paces beyond it.