Author Topic: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?  (Read 17994 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2018, 10:11:54 PM »
Did you listen to the youtube link I posted re VDM at trial of George Zimmerman?  VDM was also a Major in the US army.  Prof Knight also served in the military.  VDM and Prof Knight were in medi corps so plenty of experience with gsw's.  Par for the course with that generation.  Where VDM excels over the others is that he has the expertise in ballistics and pathology of gsw's. 

Yeah I know a little about how snobby military personnel can be.  I recall my first proper job in what was then referred to as personnel now human resources.  The personnel director ex RAF squadron leader took me out to lunch and advised me I should not sprinkle salt on the meal but tip a little pile at the side of the plate and dip the food in it.  This was before the food even arrived and I never put additional salt on food anyway.  Funnily enough though my dad ex navy always did this with his salt.  He (the boss) also told me not to acknowledge the waiting staff.  I got on ok with him and he was good to work with but I found all this ridiculous and uncomfortable in not making eye contact with a waiter/ess and saying thank you but realised it all stemmed from the RAF.  Or perhaps it was a test to see how I reacted.  As far as I can recall that was the only time I ate with him alone so the situation didn't arise again.  But yes the former boss and other ex military guys either employees or external consultants were terribly snobby about food and drink when we were at upmarket venues for training courses.     

Off topic but for whatever reason I Googled my dads brother who died in WW2 and found a roll of honour entry for him at his former school.   8(>((

PAGE
   
Cecil Arthur
   
Sergeant (Navigator) 1579628, 90 Squadron, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Died 11th June 1944. Aged 20. Son of Arthur Horace and Edith M. Page, of Bedford. Buried in DREUX COMMUNAL CEMETERY, Eure-et-Loir, France. Row 2. Grave 21.

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire/BedfordModernSchoolWW2Memorial.html
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2018, 10:38:47 PM »
In 1971 Bernard Knight wrote a study tiled "Murder, Suicide, or Accident: The Forensic Pathologist at Work
In this he claims that woman who commits suicide by firearm are woman murdered until proven otherwise.

Arlidge QC pointed this out to the Jury and It must have had a devestaing effect on them. JBs own defence expert not only admits he gets wrong but also would have onced assumed in his own proffetional opinion that JB was guilty.

He no longer belives that of course but was prepared to put his reputaion on the line on that bold claim. This shows his education on the subject was stricken with dogma and outdated assumptions.

He then starts making refferences to Agatha Christie novels infront of the Jury.

I struggle to take him seriously to be honest.

Most women in UK don't have access to firearms so of course it's unusual.  I think he explains this in his testimony?  I doubt it had a "devastating" effect on jurors.  I think MF's "virtually certain" sealed JB's fate. 

David I can assure you Prof Knight was the equivalent of Messi (that's little Lionel Messi with an i not messy with a y!) ask Nelly Red Belly for his opinion. 

There's data in VDM's book about women who commit suicide by firearms in US.  If women in UK had access to firearms in the same numbers then I'm sure you would see similar figures. 

Did you know Prof Knight wrote a series of books

https://www.fantasticfiction.com/k/bernard-knight/

I'll respond to your other points tomorrow time permitting  &^&*%
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2018, 04:42:01 PM »
I don't think so. Its only a seemingly complex soc/trial when you first look into it.  Once you purge your mind of all the BS this case has generated and see what is left its actually rather straight forward.

What you mean is that if we all agree with your version of events it's straight forward?  If it is as straight forward as you would have us believe why is JB still behind bars 33 years on?  Why did you at one time believe JB guilty?  33 years on we still don't know for sure how many shots were fired: 25 or 26?  WHF is the UK's only peacetime mass shooting unwitnessed.     

A witness can only answer questions that are asked. Mead was a witness introduced by the defence. Thus his initial examination (Like Bernard Knight) would have been by Rivlin QC who was pursuing his silencer was used blood mixture theory. Need I say more? Rivlin is not going to ask him any questions about whether the silencer was used or not because Rivlin is trying to persuade the jury that Sheila used it.

I think you might have shot yourself in the foot here David unless I've misunderstood you?  Rivlin's strategy was based on the blood flake supposedly found inside the silencer representing an initimate mix of NB and June's blood from near contact wounds/the beating NB sustained resulting in backspatter entering the silencer.  The premise then being that SC having killed her parents and children returned the silencer to the gun cupboard placing it in a bag behind a dart board before taking her own life sans silencer.  So yes of course Rivlin wanted to reject the idea that SC's gsw's resulted in 'drawback' ie blood entering the silencer.  This can be evidenced during Lawson's cross-examination of Fletcher. 

Major Mead was an expert witness in the MacLennan Enquiry.  MacLennan was a policeman who was secretly a homosexual and was about to be charged and arrested by the Hong Kong Police for soliciting male escorts.  Under colonial law he would be facing a possible life sentence. He shot himself in the chest five times with a handgun inside his property that has all windows and doors secured from within. Sound familiar?

Maybe this is why Rivlin hired him? so he could question him on his experience of it and hope the jury would pick up on it.

It seems to me the UK was/is thin on the ground when it comes to experts in ballistics and pathology of gsw's due to UK's low crime rates involving firearms.  No disrespect to the Major as I know very little about him but did cost and convenience play a part?  Did David Napley's firm Kingsley Napley consider US experts?  If they did it would probably have required Terzeon, Lawson and Rivling taking trips to US to meet with experts and the overall time and cost of doing so was likely to be significantly greater than saying instructing the Major. 

Unless you have access to the Major's testimony how do you know what he was examined on?   

Also according to Shelley. Mead said the shooter didn't need any shooting skills to hit the targets at that close range.

I think we can safely say that's true.  I seem to recall as a child shooting plastic floating ducks at stalls on fairgrounds.  The whole thing questioning SC's ability to load and operate the rifle and shoot victims at close range is imo sexist nonsense.  Had JB had a same sex sibling who wasn't interested in guns, lived in London etc I doubt there would be the same questions asked.  There's nothing remotely complicated about it.  Compare 'Farm Girl' loading the mag, chambering a round, and letting off shots vs the complexity of operating a twin baby buggy: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc

Note 'Farm Girls' long polished nails. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGpniIR5oqc

Undisclosed evidence confirms a call was made by the police in WHF on that morning. Since the phone was allegedly found off the hook. The police must have either used that very phone or placed the handset back on the cradle and used the office phone. Either way the phone was tampered with.

Depressing the black bits that are depressed when the receiver sits on the cradle would clear the line.  There would be no need to tamper with the receiver to clear the line.

Of course it would  make sense for Rivlin to have argued that Neville made the call and then returned upstairs and as a result got shot. Since he could have and didn't it does not constitute a fresh argument. Thus cannot be used at appeal unless 'fresh evidence' comes to light that supports it.

This is a grey area.  If forensic tests show the silencer/blood was fabricated I think it unlikely DPP/CoA will refuse a soc reconstruction.  Lawson cross-examined Fletcher on whether anyone was shot upstairs outside the main bedroom and he replied no.  Lawson didn't ask Fletcher how he arrived at his conclusion.  No attempt to cross-examine on absence of NB's blood in main bedroom (Rivlin touched on this with Dr Vanezis) and the downward trajectories.  Lawson simply accepted Fletcher's "no"!  This is Fletcher who under cross-examination told Lawson NB sustained an exit gsw to his head and again Lawson accepted this.  There's no pathological evidence NB sustained an exit gsw to his head. 
   
Its already been established that the silencer was not on the gun when the shots to Sheila's were inflicted. CCRC/COA are clinging onto the paint and scratch marks in order to claim the silencer was merely used and Sheila would not have used it thus cannot be the killer.

According to them as long as the silencer left the gun cupboard that night/morning the killer was not Sheila. It makes sense but to uphold a murder conviction on that basis without consulting a Jury on it is a complete joke.

Acquittal will be achieved with direct proof Sheila was involved. Either via newly discovered or withheld evidence.

Not necessary once you show Sheila's involvement.
I don't believe it has been established the silencer was not on the rifle when SC sustained her gsw's.  Tests were carried out in US and experts concluded from photos that SC's gsw's were caused by the muzzle of the rifle as opposed to the muzzle of the silencer evidenced by the powder tatooing and abrasion rings.  This was an expert's opinion and not a scientific experiment as such.  Of course in this scenario the CCRC/CoA will fall back on the paint on scratches.  However if an experiment can show drawback and the blood flake were an impossibility and therefore must have been fabricated then the paint and scratches will fall.

What would prevent prosecutors from arguing that JB staged the bible after June dropped it?

Why bother it the silencer/blood can be blown apart?

Furthermore the notion that June clung onto the bible in the face of death then dropped it as she walked back towards the hallway makes no sense.

Who said anything about June clinging to the bible as she walked back towards the hallway?  From the blood staining it appears June left her side of the bed and walked around the bed to NB's side perhaps intending to use the tel phone normally kept on NB's bedside table.  I think she accidentally dropped the bible, probably from lack of energy, as she faced NB's bedside cupboard and was then intent on trying to get to the phone in the upstairs office.
 
There is nothing wrong with them. In isolation you can deduce several interpretations of what happened. Its the one that fits into the larger picture that is probably the correct one.

Sorry I don't understand?

Defence and prosecution don't dispute JB handled the gun on the evening of the 6th. Defence and prosecution don't dispute Sheila's prints got on the gun on the early hours of the 7th. What they do dispute is how exactly Sheila's prints got there.

Yes I agree the fingerprints are a very minor point but nonetheless the fact DI Cook, the fingerprint expert, told CAL in 2013 had SC fired the rifle 25 times he would expect to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle shows a very poor understanding about firearms and fingerprints must have existed amongst EP in 1985.  Several small factors set off a chain reaction.   

Its the most straight forward way to get an acquittal. In this case the bar is so high you will need Rivlin to admit to it so it cannot be disputed. Its my opinion that Rivlin now hopes JB is guilty for the sake of his own legal career and legacy. Does the JB haunt him? who knows. The fact he almost split the jury without making any allegations of wrongdoing or conspiracy I find rather impressive. After all who is the root cause of JBs conviction? Its not Rivlin. Its easy to criticize him in hindsight.

What's the most straight forward way to get an acquittal? 

The fact JB's case has failed twice at CoA and once with CCRC and judicial review isn't that unusual. 

I've already set out what I think is capable of making a successful appeal.  The fact you and/or others might disagree doesn't keep me awake at night.

Rivlin is retired so his legal career is over.  Is there any evidence he was a heavyweight defender?  A Sergio Ramos in the world of football?  8(>(( 

You might be impressed by Rivlin but I doubt JB takes comfort in the fact he split the jury without claims of wrongdoing/conspiracy. 

For those that believe JB the victim of a MoJ I don't believe there's any one person responsible more a chain of events and multiple factors.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2018, 08:07:20 PM »
Well alarm bells might have sounded had the critics you refer to have been members of professional bodies but it seems they're simply a few members of the public who objected to the fact VDM acted for the defence in the case of Phil Spector who was found guilty of murdering Ms Clarkson.  It seems the critics garnered a total of 26 votes for their now closed petition which required 100 to get off the ground.  I don't see the views of the critics carrying any more weight than my own over Malcolm Fletcher?   The internet provides a voice for anyone and everyone but that doesn't mean to say what they spout holds water as evidenced by Mike Tesko and his wild theories over everything from WHF to the universe. 

During VDM's intro to the court in the case of George Zimmerman he only ever responded to questions put to him.  I would suggest it is important for the court to have good understanding of experts' background, credentials, qualifications, books authored, peer reviewed pusblished articles etc.  If I was a member of a jury I would find this sort of info helpful, useful and reassuring bearing in mind the defence/prosecution could launch a counter argument/claim if the expert is found over-egging it.  Malcolm Fletcher's "13 years experience in the firearms dept" doesn't tell anyone anything.  And his "small amount of experience of having an air rifle as a small boy" doesn't fill me with confidence that he was up to the task of providing reliable testimony at JB's trial about about complex aspects of ballistics and the pathology of gsw's.  And there's no doubt in my mind MF's testimony will be shown to be wrong.  If I'm right I hope for MF's sake he is only found incompetent.  If incompetent the FSS/Home Office will take the flak.

If VDM provides testimony on JB's case for DPP/CCRC/CoA what advantages do you believe MF had by being involved in the case pre/during trial?  I can't see any, other than the fact VDM wouldn't have access to destroyed exhibits eg SC's nightdress, bullets and casings but given MF's written testimony covers these exhibits I don't see this as a disadvantage.  VDM would simply carry out tests to see if he can replicate MF's findings eg gun oil on nightdress and black discolouration to hands. 

You say MF was involved pre trial and during and yet he was clearly unable to master the most basic facts of the case evidenced by his claim during his testimony that NB sustained an exit would to his head.

But that is what you are Holly.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2018, 09:37:44 PM »
But that is what you are Holly.

Yes of course.  It's akin to me criticising Fletcher and his testimony which means sfa. 

My claims about Fletcher's testimony will only assist JB if experts are able to support my theories and show Fletcher's testimony was wrong.    


Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2018, 10:06:24 PM »
What you mean is that if we all agree with your version of events it's straight forward?     

No what I mean is once you remove the mud from the water it no longer appears so deep.

If it is as straight forward as you would have us believe why is JB still behind bars 33 years on? 

We don't have an inquisitorial justice system. Appeals post-conviction focus on question of law not factual disputes. Being factually innocent with evidence of innocence legally inadmissible you will remain legally guilty. Your only hope then would be public pressure.

In working on criminal cases it does so in line with the working premises of the criminal appeals system, seeing them in terms of a general presumption of legal guilt, as all of the people in the cases that it reviews are legally guilty of the crimes of which they allege that they are innocent of committing (cf. Naughton, 2008a). Further, the CCRC must find technical forms of fresh evidence to construct legal grounds for appeal and not evidence of innocence.


Another problem is the rate of disclosure. Think of the case as a jigsaw. JB has half the pieces withheld from him. Overtime he is given a few more pieces. By the time he has all pieces to complete the picture. 95% of the picture is not legally admissible because its been available to him and used by him though his previous appeals.


Why did you at one time believe JB guilty?

At that time I still had a lot of BS to purge.

For example I once believed for a while that Nevills side of the bed was the one covered in blood (Junes side). Because people kept insisting that Nevill was shot in bed. I naively believed these people knew what they were talking about. So by looking at the CS photos I then assumed Nevill side of the bed must be the one covered in blood. So to my mind that made the phone call seem rather unlikely.

Things like that.

33 years on we still don't know for sure how many shots were fired: 25 or 26? 

And? What's important is who fired them.

I think you might have shot yourself in the foot here David unless I've misunderstood you? Rivlin's strategy was based on the blood flake supposedly found inside the silencer representing an initimate mix of NB and June's blood from near contact wounds/the beating NB sustained resulting in backspatter entering the silencer.  The premise then being that SC having killed her parents and children returned the silencer to the gun cupboard placing it in a bag behind a dart board before taking her own life sans silencer.  So yes of course Rivlin wanted to reject the idea that SC's gsw's resulted in 'drawback' ie blood entering the silencer.  This can be evidenced during Lawson's cross-examination of Fletcher.   

Yes you have. Mead had reason to believe the silencer was not involved in the shooting full stop. Rivlins defence strategy involved Sheila using it to shoot the other four people before removing it. Thus he is not going to ask any questions that will elicit Meads reasons or opinions for believing that it was not involved at all.

I will try and answer the rest later. Got lots of stuff I need to get done.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:34:13 PM by David1819 »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2018, 10:30:17 PM »
No what I mean is once you remove the mud from the water it no longer appears so deep.

We don't have an inquisitorial justice system. Appeals post-conviction focus on question of law not factual disputes. Being factually innocent with evidence of innocence legally inadmissible you will remain legally guilty. Your only hope then would be public pressure.

In working on criminal cases it does so in line with the working premises of the criminal appeals system, seeing them in terms of a general presumption of legal guilt, as all of the people in the cases that it reviews are legally guilty of the crimes of which they allege that they are innocent of committing (cf. Naughton, 2008a). Further, the CCRC must find technical forms of fresh evidence to construct legal grounds for appeal and not evidence of innocence.


At that time I still had a lot of BS to purge.

For example I once believed for a while that Nevills side of the bed was the one covered in blood (Junes side). Because people kept insisting that Nevill was shot in bed. I naively believed these people knew what they were talking about. So by looking at the CS photos I then assumed Nevill side of the bed must be the one covered in blood. So to my mind that made the phone call seem rather unlikely.

Things like that.

And? What's important is who fired them.

Yes you have. Mead had reason to believe the silencer was not involved in the shooting full stop. Rivlins defence strategy involved Sheila using it to shoot the other four people before removing it. Thus he is not going to ask any questions that will elicit Meads reasons or opinions for believing that it was not involved at all.

I will try and answer the rest later. Got lots of stuff I need to get done.

Does your "stuff" by any chance involve a replay of the 'Farm Girl' vid I posted?  I know when we met you said you like older women. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2018, 11:23:51 PM »
No what I mean is once you remove the mud from the water it no longer appears so deep.

We don't have an inquisitorial justice system. Appeals post-conviction focus on question of law not factual disputes. Being factually innocent with evidence of innocence legally inadmissible you will remain legally guilty. Your only hope then would be public pressure.

In working on criminal cases it does so in line with the working premises of the criminal appeals system, seeing them in terms of a general presumption of legal guilt, as all of the people in the cases that it reviews are legally guilty of the crimes of which they allege that they are innocent of committing (cf. Naughton, 2008a). Further, the CCRC must find technical forms of fresh evidence to construct legal grounds for appeal and not evidence of innocence.


Another problem is the rate of disclosure. Think of the case as a jigsaw. JB has half the pieces withheld from him. Overtime he is given a few more pieces. By the time he has all pieces to complete the picture. 95% of the picture is not legally admissible because its been available to him and used by him though his previous appeals.


At that time I still had a lot of BS to purge.

For example I once believed for a while that Nevills side of the bed was the one covered in blood (Junes side). Because people kept insisting that Nevill was shot in bed. I naively believed these people knew what they were talking about. So by looking at the CS photos I then assumed Nevill side of the bed must be the one covered in blood. So to my mind that made the phone call seem rather unlikely.

Things like that.

And? What's important is who fired them.

Yes you have. Mead had reason to believe the silencer was not involved in the shooting full stop. Rivlins defence strategy involved Sheila using it to shoot the other four people before removing it. Thus he is not going to ask any questions that will elicit Meads reasons or opinions for believing that it was not involved at all.

I will try and answer the rest later. Got lots of stuff I need to get done.

Why would you believe that Nevill slept on June's side of the bed? It is widely documented that June was shot in bed and that the blood on the bed was hers!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2018, 11:46:30 PM »
No what I mean is once you remove the mud from the water it no longer appears so deep.

That's a bit deep for me on a Fri night after a few beers.

We don't have an inquisitorial justice system. Appeals post-conviction focus on question of law not factual disputes. Being factually innocent with evidence of innocence legally inadmissible you will remain legally guilty. Your only hope then would be public pressure.

In working on criminal cases it does so in line with the working premises of the criminal appeals system, seeing them in terms of a general presumption of legal guilt, as all of the people in the cases that it reviews are legally guilty of the crimes of which they allege that they are innocent of committing (cf. Naughton, 2008a). Further, the CCRC must find technical forms of fresh evidence to construct legal grounds for appeal and not evidence of innocence.


Another problem is the rate of disclosure. Think of the case as a jigsaw. JB has half the pieces withheld from him. Overtime he is given a few more pieces. By the time he has all pieces to complete the picture. 95% of the picture is not legally admissible because its been available to him and used by him though his previous appeals.

You need to KISS more David: Keep It Simple Sweet:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

My understanding of the criteria for a successful appeal is new evidence that had jurors have heard about at trial might have caused them to return a different verdict.  Are you able to show me where this happened?

At that time I still had a lot of BS to purge.

For example I once believed for a while that Nevills side of the bed was the one covered in blood (Junes side). Because people kept insisting that Nevill was shot in bed. I naively believed these people knew what they were talking about. So by looking at the CS photos I then assumed Nevill side of the bed must be the one covered in blood. So to my mind that made the phone call seem rather unlikely.

Things like that.

Oh I see.  Maybe best to keep an open mind before setting out your stall?

And? What's important is who fired them.

Yes ultimately but as you said it's like a jigsaw ie fitting together the pieces to complete the picture puzzle.  Did June receive an 8th gsw with one causing a gouge only wound. Or was the gouge only wound caused by an exiting bullet from another wound? I'm inclined to think the former which then accounts for all 12 casings and 4 x spent bullets.  If the latter there's an extra casing upstairs and bullet DRH/5 must relate to NB's elbow/chest graze wound. 

Yes you have. Mead had reason to believe the silencer was not involved in the shooting full stop. Rivlins defence strategy involved Sheila using it to shoot the other four people before removing it. Thus he is not going to ask any questions that will elicit Meads reasons or opinions for believing that it was not involved at all.

Where are you getting the above from? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2018, 12:20:25 AM »

Depressing the black bits that are depressed when the receiver sits on the cradle would clear the line.  There would be no need to tamper with the receiver to clear the line.


Yes but considering the mind-set of the police that morning. I really cannot imagine them arraigning for one of them to press the black bits down while another officer upstairs can make a phone call to preserve a scene that was already a shut case in their minds. It would not surprise me if whoever made that call just depressed the black bits and used the kitchen phone not thinking anything of it.

Not that it actually matters if that did happen.

This is a grey area.  If forensic tests show the silencer/blood was fabricated I think it unlikely DPP/CoA will refuse a soc reconstruction.   

Its the silencer/paint that you need to show is fabricated. And the CCRC will settle for nothing less that a conclusive photograph of the mantle taken on the day the crime that has no scratches under it. The only other way I can think of is if an undisclosed crime scene photo taken that morning showing inside the gun cupboard comes to light showing the boxes inside covered in undisturbed dust and cobwebs to the extent it would not be possible to use the silencer and put the silencer back without disrupting the surface dust and cob webs.

Once you have that then I doubt the DPP/CoA would even bother to challenge the appeal.

But I cant see such evidence coming. The only way forward IMO is evidence of Sheila's involvement that was not shown to the Jury.


Lawson cross-examined Fletcher on whether anyone was shot upstairs outside the main bedroom and he replied no.  Lawson didn't ask Fletcher how he arrived at his conclusion.  No attempt to cross-examine on absence of NB's blood in main bedroom (Rivlin touched on this with Dr Vanezis) and the downward trajectories.  Lawson simply accepted Fletcher's "no"!  This is Fletcher who under cross-examination told Lawson NB sustained an exit gsw to his head and again Lawson accepted this.  There's no pathological evidence NB sustained an exit gsw to his head. 

If I remember correctly. It was Venezis that led either Arlidge or Rivlin to think NB sustained an exit gsw to his head but realised there and then he got the bullet numbers mixed up.

Lawson didn't ask fletcher how he came that conclusion but he could have asked. The same goes for Fletchers credentials. If he had none at the time. Its no grounds for appeal because Rivlin could have simply asked him the question there and then. but he didn't


   I don't believe it has been established the silencer was not on the rifle when SC sustained her gsw's.  Tests were carried out in US and experts concluded from photos that SC's gsw's were caused by the muzzle of the rifle as opposed to the muzzle of the silencer evidenced by the powder tatooing and abrasion rings.  This was an expert's opinion and not a scientific experiment as such.

It was not just one experts opinion it was three experts opinion suplimented by experimnets on pig skin. The CCRC fell back on the pain because they could not produce a counter expert to challenege it.

There is also evidence from the trial that confirms this. Such as no blood or tissue from Nicholas inside the silencer despite two contact wounds to the head. And that studies in America that show backspatter is most commonly associated with shots to the head. Its all there in transcripts. Not legally admissible for an appeal but it all adds up when you put all these things together.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2018, 02:18:32 AM »
Why would you believe that Nevill slept on June's side of the bed? It is widely documented that June was shot in bed and that the blood on the bed was hers!

Having been told by numerous posters that Nevill was shot while asleep. I naively assumed they knew what they were talking about. When I later looked at the crime scene photo I concluded that side of the bed closest to the hallway was Neville’s because he can’t have been shot on the side that had no blood on it.

In that period I knew nothing about the blood groups on the bed. I knew nothing of the circumstances of June’s death other than she was shot. It was not until December 2015 that I had learned who slept where.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2018, 02:46:35 AM »
Does your "stuff" by any chance involve a replay of the 'Farm Girl' vid I posted?  I know when we met you said you like older women.

No my 'stuff' involves making money and re-organising myself.

Every girlfriend I've had has been younger than me. Albeit not much younger.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2018, 04:02:03 AM »

What's the most straight forward way to get an acquittal? 


A not guilty verdict at trial.


I've already set out what I think is capable of making a successful appeal.  The fact you and/or others might disagree doesn't keep me awake at night.


If you want to 'Keep It Simple Sweet' then forget the appeals process. Set out what you think will convince the  CCRC to evoke a recommendation to exercise the Royal Prerogative of Mercy. Under the
Criminal Appeal Act 1995 it has the power to do so.

Rivlin is retired so his legal career is over. 

Yeah but if JB goes down in human history as an innocent man. Rivlin will forever be seen as a numpty in the legal word.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2018, 01:04:46 PM »
Yes but considering the mind-set of the police that morning. I really cannot imagine them arraigning for one of them to press the black bits down while another officer upstairs can make a phone call to preserve a scene that was already a shut case in their minds. It would not surprise me if whoever made that call just depressed the black bits and used the kitchen phone not thinking anything of it.

Not that it actually matters if that did happen.

If the police thought the phone off the hook was irrelevant and subsequently used that phone to make a call why would they think to leave it how it was found and take a soc image?  If it was an open and shut case why were soc officers sent in to collect and document numerous samples and take a large number of soc images?  Why did members of the firearms team continue to search the property with caution even after all occupants had been found matching JB's description?

The prosecution at trial asserted the tel call from NB to JB was false on 3 grounds one of which was that the phone was not obviously stained.  MT QC at 2002 appeal argued the police made a call from the kitchen phone and in doing so may have inadvertently removed bloodstains.  Had the QC's at trial/appeal argued NB made the call before sustaining any gsw's which is what the physical evidence supports by way of:

- absence of NB's bloodstains in bedroom
- casings
- distance of shots
- trajectories
- wound tracks

Why didn't Lawson put this to Fletcher at trial during cross-examination?  Why didn't Turner put this forward at 2002 appeal hearing?

A not guilty verdict at trial.

Well yes obviously but we're talking about appeals.

 
If you want to 'Keep It Simple Sweet' then forget the appeals process. Set out what you think will convince the  CCRC to evoke a recommendation to exercise the Royal Prerogative of Mercy. Under the
Criminal Appeal Act 1995 it has the power to do so.

Can you give some examples where this has actually happened?

Yeah but if JB goes down in human history as an innocent man. Rivlin will forever be seen as a numpty in the legal word.

Many considered David Waddington's handling of Stefan Kiszko's case/trial partly responsible for his wrongful conviction but it didn't stop him being appointed Home Secretary. 

Its the silencer/paint that you need to show is fabricated. And the CCRC will settle for nothing less that a conclusive photograph of the mantle taken on the day the crime that has no scratches under it. The only other way I can think of is if an undisclosed crime scene photo taken that morning showing inside the gun cupboard comes to light showing the boxes inside covered in undisturbed dust and cobwebs to the extent it would not be possible to use the silencer and put the silencer back without disrupting the surface dust and cob webs.

Once you have that then I doubt the DPP/CoA would even bother to challenge the appeal.

But I cant see such evidence coming. The only way forward IMO is evidence of Sheila's involvement that was not shown to the Jury.

IMO it's the blood that needs undermining over the silencer, scratches and paint.  If it can be shown the blood would not survive the environments it was exposed to prior to it being tested on 12th Aug then it was obviously planted or the test results simply faked on paper.  It's the blood flake which underpins the conviction ie SC's blood groups in the silencer supposedly from drawback.

If I remember correctly. It was Venezis that led either Arlidge or Rivlin to think NB sustained an exit gsw to his head but realised there and then he got the bullet numbers mixed up.
Quote

So how does this explain Fletcher's claims of NB sustaining an exit wound and Lawson going along with it?

Lawson didn't ask fletcher how he came that conclusion but he could have asked. The same goes for Fletchers credentials. If he had none at the time. Its no grounds for appeal because Rivlin could have simply asked him the question there and then. but he didn't

I assume you're referring to Fletcher's claims no one was shot outside the main bedroom upstairs and the fact Lawson accepted this and didn't cross-examine?  I disagree I think a reconstruction could be used at appeal as it involves new forensic techniques unavailable at trial. 


It was not just one experts opinion it was three experts opinion suplimented by experimnets on pig skin. The CCRC fell back on the pain because they could not produce a counter expert to challenege it.

There is also evidence from the trial that confirms this. Such as no blood or tissue from Nicholas inside the silencer despite two contact wounds to the head. And that studies in America that show backspatter is most commonly associated with shots to the head. Its all there in transcripts. Not legally admissible for an appeal but it all adds up when you put all these things together.

As I said I believe it is the blood which needs undermining rather than the drawback mechanism/silencer, paint and scratches.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2018, 03:48:55 PM »
I meant to say 12th Sept above ie the blood flake tested on 12th Sept not 12th Aug.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?