Author Topic: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?  (Read 17992 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2018, 04:04:11 PM »
IMO it's the blood that needs undermining over the silencer, scratches and paint.  If it can be shown the blood would not survive the environments it was exposed to prior to it being tested on 12th Aug then it was obviously planted or the test results simply faked on paper.  It's the blood flake which underpins the conviction ie SC's blood groups in the silencer supposedly from drawback.

As I said I believe it is the blood which needs undermining rather than the drawback mechanism/silencer, paint and scratches.

Blood cannot get into a silencer via a contact wound that leaves a muzzle imprint of the threaded barrel. 

Undermining done.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2018, 04:08:55 PM »
Blood cannot get into a silencer via a contact wound that leaves a muzzle imprint of the threaded barrel. 

Undermining done.

It's simple science.  Pressure out followed by vacuum and suction. A gun will always draw back air and contaminants the moment after it is discharged.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2018, 04:10:24 PM »
No my 'stuff' involves making money and re-organising myself.

That's novel a male millennial capable of multi-tasking.  Shame your time-keeping let's you down if my experience with you is anything to go by!  I guess it gave me an opportunity to browse the beers on offer in the micro brewery. 

Every girlfriend I've had has been younger than me. Albeit not much younger.

Who mentioned girlfriends?  You said you found older women interesting and gave Lookout/her posts as an example.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2018, 04:11:05 PM »
- Forensic tests showing hand swab evidence wrong

- Forensic tests showing state of SC's hands and nightdress consistent with her as perp


I struggle to phathom why you think this. Look at the origional lab notes. And trial transcripts.

The lead, copper and iron all show Sheila was the shooter. You can argue against this with innocent explanations for those elements but then you would be arguing Sheila never loaded and handled the weapon.

All Rivlin had to do was argue the following.

 - The tests show Sheila had more lead on her right hand just like the testees in the lab. The diffence in levels due to the amount of time between reloading the gun and taking her own life.

-  The tests show copper and zinc is on Sheila's hands. Brass is a metallic alloy that is made of copper and zinc. This show Sheila loaded the brass casings.

But instead claimed Sheila washed her hands and as a result cant make a big deal out of the interpretations nor is this grounds for appeal since its already been shown in court.

If you want to insist the tests are wrong because you insist Sheila shot herself shortly after loading. You will just end up going round and round in your own circluar reasoning trap.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2018, 04:13:28 PM »
Blood cannot get into a silencer via a contact wound that leaves a muzzle imprint of the threaded barrel. 

Undermining done.

If it was that simple David why wasn't this argued at trial?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2018, 05:06:55 PM »
I struggle to phathom why you think this. Look at the origional lab notes. And trial transcripts.

The lead, copper and iron all show Sheila was the shooter. You can argue against this with innocent explanations for those elements but then you would be arguing Sheila never loaded and handled the weapon.

All Rivlin had to do was argue the following.

 - The tests show Sheila had more lead on her right hand just like the testees in the lab. The diffence in levels due to the amount of time between reloading the gun and taking her own life.

-  The tests show copper and zinc is on Sheila's hands. Brass is a metallic alloy that is made of copper and zinc. This show Sheila loaded the brass casings.

But instead claimed Sheila washed her hands and as a result cant make a big deal out of the interpretations nor is this grounds for appeal since its already been shown in court.

If you want to insist the tests are wrong because you insist Sheila shot herself shortly after loading. You will just end up going round and round in your own circluar reasoning trap.

We debated all of this in the relevant thread so I don't propose to go through it all again:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.0

I agree with Dr Lloyd the results between testees and SC are not quantitatively different.  Moreover control samples were not taken from testees' hands prior to testing.

David take a peep in VDM's book and see if you can find any forensic tests re handling cartridges/bullets.  You will find zero.  Why?  Because you can't conjure up tests based on handling materials that are found in everyday items and then say he/she did/didn't handle x when he/she may have handled y made of the same materials.  The test is not a valid scientific experiment.

GSR is a different matter as it contains unique combination of material which can be connected to firearms.  But we're not talking GSR we're talking level of lead from handling cartridges.  Please do not conflates the two:

- GSR - Firearm discharge
- Lead on hands from handling cartridges

The problem you have David is that your theories rely on every expert being wrong:

- Dr Craig - incompetent drunk who failed to note/observe SC's 2 x gunshot wounds.

- Dr Vanezis - lied under oath about bloodstains on SC's hands

- Prof Knight - overlooked soc images which conclude SC's TOD occurred when JB was outside with police

- Dr Lloyd - his findings re the hand swabs are wrong and you're right

Whereas I agree with all the above experts.  I've no reason to believe they were anything other than competent, credible and reliable. 

My criticisms are largely with Fletcher, Brian Elliot (hand swabs) and the lawyers.  What I have in my favour is that the UK gov identified quality failings at FSS during 80's:

3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science. The present FSS in-house quality framework goes well beyond the basic requirements of ISO17025 and is in close accord with the FSR’s forthcoming Codes. Indeed, before closure was announced the FSS were planning to act as a test-bed for compliance to this code later this year.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

And

There were many incidents of quality failings within the FSS which simply did not make the news.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmsctech/610/610vw34.htm




Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2018, 08:53:22 PM »
That's novel a male millennial capable of multi-tasking.  Shame your time-keeping let's you down if my experience with you is anything to go by!  I guess it gave me an opportunity to browse the beers on offer in the micro brewery. 

Who mentioned girlfriends?  You said you found older women interesting and gave Lookout/her posts as an example.

Now you are just talking codswallop

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2018, 08:58:26 PM »
If it was that simple David why wasn't this argued at trial?

Because it was never thought of back then. The evidence was not produced until 2011.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2018, 09:35:18 PM »

David take a peep in VDM's book and see if you can find any forensic tests re handling cartridges/bullets.  You will find zero.  Why? 

Because his primary speciality is gunshot wounds. Not trace evidence.

The problem you have David is that your theories rely on every expert being wrong:

- Dr Craig - incompetent drunk who failed to note/observe SC's 2 x gunshot wounds.


Indeed he probably was and indeed he did

- Dr Vanezis - lied under oath about bloodstains on SC's hands

Indeed he did.



- Prof Knight - overlooked soc images which conclude SC's TOD occurred when JB was outside with police


You don't know what he looked at. All the defence had was small poor small quality photos. According to his own bibliography the photo of the gun on Sheila confirms JB guilt.

- Dr Lloyd - his findings re the hand swabs are wrong and you're right


Not necessarily.

Whereas I agree with all the above experts.  I've no reason to believe they were anything other than competent, credible and reliable. 

So you believe Sheila shot herself once. Then the police shot her a second time after Dr Craig had a look?


GSR is a different matter as it contains unique combination of material which can be connected to firearms.  But we're not talking GSR we're talking level of lead from handling cartridges.  Please do not conflates the two:

The term GSR is ambiguous. Is often used to describe any trace evidence that involves using a Firearm. That includes handling and loading the weapon as well as firing it. Makes sense as they all need doing in order to shoot. In almost all studies I have read they describe the trace evidence from loading or handling the weapon as (GSR)

How do you account for the lead, copper and iron traces on Sheila's hands? Lead being on the shell casings, the same shell casings made of brass that contains copper that gets loaded in a steel gun that contains Iron.

Why is  there more lead on the right hand. The hand that she would have used if she loaded the casings?

Why is there more iron on her left hand. The hand that she would have used to told magazine while loading it?

I am sure there are several innocent explanations and possibilitys. But to argue anything other that Sheila loading and handling the weapon would be to argue that she was not the shooter. But you believe she was.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 09:53:59 PM by David1819 »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2018, 12:39:59 PM »
Now you are just talking codswallop

I will start a thread in the JB section: Call Me Dave and Holl Hook Up!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2018, 12:51:41 PM »
Because it was never thought of back then. The evidence was not produced until 2011.

It should not have been a case of thinking about in 85/86; powder tatoos and abrasion rings are part and parcel of a shooting incident and further evidence that the lawyers and experts were not up to the task.

Given the evidence could have been adjudicated on at trial it shows a measure of goodwill in that it could have be thrown back on this basis alone.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2018, 01:37:35 PM »
Because his primary speciality is gunshot wounds. Not trace evidence.

The book is entitled: 'Gunshot Wounds - Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics and Forensic Techniques'.  It contains chapters on 'Firearms and Ammunition' and 'Detection of Gunshot Residue'.  If a reliable test existed for assessing whether victims/perps had recently handled ammunition then it would feature.  It doesn't feature because there's no way of conducting such a test on a scientific basis.  You need to develop your critical thinking skills.  You find me some evidence to the contrary from a reliable source and next time we hook up the beers are on me.

Indeed he probably was and indeed he did

Indeed he did.

You have no evidence whatsoever that Dr Craig was an incompetent drunk.  Find me some evidence to the contrary and next time we hook up the beers are on me.

It is easy some 3 decades on with the benefit of an autopsy report to appreciate SC sustained 2 gsw's.  We are looking at soc images safe in the knowledge this was the case.  Dr Craig was looking at SC with bloody smear marks across her neck.  It was not his job to go wiping bloodstains and intefere with victims/soc.  His role was simply to certify death.  It has been pointed out to you countless times all victims sustained multiple gsw's and he only noted 1 gsw for each victim for obvious reasons ie it was not his role to intefere with soc/victims. 

Did any of the officers at soc or those from coroners office observe more than 1 gsw on SC?  Did Chief Sup Harris note in his WS?  No.  Did DCI Jones note in his pocket book?  No.  Did DS Jones say along the line of I suspected Bamber from the off because SC sustained 2 gsw's?  No.  Find me some evidence to the contrary, beers on me.

You don't know what he looked at. All the defence had was small poor small quality photos. According to his own bibliography the photo of the gun on Sheila confirms JB guilt.

I do know what he looked at because he talks at length about it in his trial testimony.  He also wrote a tome about TOD and confirms it is impossible to provide a narrow time frame eg when JB was outside with police.

Now whose talking codswallop.  He said, words to the effect, where it is thought women have committed suicide by firearms it should be investigated further and treated with suspicion.  Hardly surprising when so few women in UK have access to firearms. 

Not necessarily.

See my reply above - there's no scientific test capable of measuring metals on a person's hands and determining whether he/she handled ammunition when the metals involved are present in everyday items.

So you believe Sheila shot herself once. Then the police shot her a second time after Dr Craig had a look?

It is easy some 3 decades on with the benefit of an autopsy report to appreciate SC sustained 2 gsw's.  We are looking at soc images safe in the knowledge this was the case.  Dr Craig was looking at SC with bloody smear marks across her neck.  It was not his job to go wiping bloodstains and intefere with victims/soc.  His role was simply to certify death.  It has been pointed out to you countless times all victims sustained multiple gsw's and he only noted 1 gsw for each victim for obvious reasons ie it was not his role to intefere with soc/victims. 

Did any of the officers at soc or those from coroners office observe more than 1 gsw on SC?  Did Chief Sup Harris note in his WS?  No.  Did DCI Jones note in his pocket book?  No.  Did DS Jones say along the line of I suspected Bamber from the off because SC sustained 2 gsw's?  No.  Find me some evidence to the contrary, beers on me.

The term GSR is ambiguous. Is often used to describe any trace evidence that involves using a Firearm. That includes handling and loading the weapon as well as firing it. Makes sense as they all need doing in order to shoot. In almost all studies I have read they describe the trace evidence from loading or handling the weapon as (GSR)

How do you account for the lead, copper and iron traces on Sheila's hands? Lead being on the shell casings, the same shell casings made of brass that contains copper that gets loaded in a steel gun that contains Iron.

Why is  there more lead on the right hand. The hand that she would have used if she loaded the casings?

Why is there more iron on her left hand. The hand that she would have used to told magazine while loading it?

I am sure there are several innocent explanations and possibilitys. But to argue anything other that Sheila loading and handling the weapon would be to argue that she was not the shooter. But you believe she was.

See my reply above - there's no scientific test capable of measuring metals on a person's hands and determining whether he/she handled ammunition when the metals involved are present in everyday items.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2018, 01:50:22 PM »
We debated all of this in the relevant thread so I don't propose to go through it all again:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.0

I agree with Dr Lloyd the results between testees and SC are not quantitatively different.  Moreover control samples were not taken from testees' hands prior to testing.

David take a peep in VDM's book and see if you can find any forensic tests re handling cartridges/bullets.  You will find zero.  Why?  Because you can't conjure up tests based on handling materials that are found in everyday items and then say he/she did/didn't handle x when he/she may have handled y made of the same materials.  The test is not a valid scientific experiment.

GSR is a different matter as it contains unique combination of material which can be connected to firearms.  But we're not talking GSR we're talking level of lead from handling cartridges.  Please do not conflates the two:

- GSR - Firearm discharge
- Lead on hands from handling cartridges

The problem you have David is that your theories rely on every expert being wrong:

- Dr Craig - incompetent drunk who failed to note/observe SC's 2 x gunshot wounds.

- Dr Vanezis - lied under oath about bloodstains on SC's hands

- Prof Knight - overlooked soc images which conclude SC's TOD occurred when JB was outside with police

- Dr Lloyd - his findings re the hand swabs are wrong and you're right

Whereas I agree with all the above experts.  I've no reason to believe they were anything other than competent, credible and reliable. 

My criticisms are largely with Fletcher, Brian Elliot (hand swabs) and the lawyers.  What I have in my favour is that the UK gov identified quality failings at FSS during 80's:

3.3.1 Following some high profile quality failures in the 1980s the FSS implemented accreditation to quality standards from 1993 onwards, a world first for forensic science. The present FSS in-house quality framework goes well beyond the basic requirements of ISO17025 and is in close accord with the FSR’s forthcoming Codes. Indeed, before closure was announced the FSS were planning to act as a test-bed for compliance to this code later this year.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

And

There were many incidents of quality failings within the FSS which simply did not make the news.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmsctech/610/610vw34.htm

Although there has been a criticism of FSS, you can't apply that to EVERY case during the 1980's without specifics or it would simply be bandwagon jumping. Your argument against Fletcher seems to be that 'you' don't believe he was qualified enough? I don't believe that that argument will get you very far as he had worked in FS and specifically balistics for an extensive period. Any criticism of his findings is simply another expert having another opinion - in science, it happens all of the time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2018, 02:31:58 PM »
Although there has been a criticism of FSS, you can't apply that to EVERY case during the 1980's without specifics or it would simply be bandwagon jumping. Your argument against Fletcher seems to be that 'you' don't believe he was qualified enough? I don't believe that that argument will get you very far as he had worked in FS and specifically balistics for an extensive period. Any criticism of his findings is simply another expert having another opinion - in science, it happens all of the time.

Yes I agree I have no idea exactly what the "high profile quality failures" involved but it does give me some hope I'm right about the tests and testimonies of Malcolm Fletcher and Brian Elliot being wrong.   Some criticise the likes of Dr Craig, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight and Dr Llloyd when there's not a shred of evidence they were anything other than competent, credible and reliable. 

I disgree that it's opinion based where one off-sets another.  Simple tests can show who's right and who's wrong:

- Fletcher asserted at trial that he sustained black discolouration to his hands from loading cartridges into mag.  As I think you know this contradicts my own findings from carrying out the task in a local gun shop.  The test could be replicated under scientific conditions: forensic scientist loads cartridges into mag.  Assuming no discoluration to hands the scientist would then write to Eley confirming nothing has changed with manufacturing of the bullets since WHF. 

- Fletcher also asserted at trial that he would have expected to find gun oil on SC's nightdress.  This was from the barrel, ports, and vents when rifle discharged.  Again the same rifle used at WHF could be discharged 25/26 times to see if does indeed eject gun oil.

- Brian Elliot swabbed the hands of two scientists and compared them with the swabs taken from SC's hands.  He concluded that SC had not handled the cartridges as the scientists hands showed higher levels of lead.  Dr Lloyd at appeal criticised this experiment as Elliot didn't swab the hands of the scientists before handling the cartridges and in his opinion the difference in lead levels between the swabs taken from scientists and SC's hands were not quantitatively different.  Based on my own handling of the cartridges the actual lead bullet is sealed with a parrafin wax lubricant and I intutively picked them up and loaded them by the brass end.  In any event a simple experiement could easily be carried out by washing hands, checking lead levels, load cartridges into mag and then check lead levels on hands. 

In any event as I said to David, Elliot's experiment doesn't seem a valid scientific one as the level of lead found on the swabs from scientists and SC could just as easily be from handling every day items containing lead.  As far as I can see this test isn't found in any forensic text books.  It seems the lab rejected the swabs first time around as they were sent in with a firearms from an unrelated case (this was for GSR) and then looked to conjure up an alternative test due to pressure from DCI Ainsley. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 03:21:41 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2018, 04:44:07 PM »
David here's the challenge:

- Look at websites for UK's providers of forensic science eg Forensic Equity, Key Forensic etc.  You will find they are all set out in a similar format eg Ballistics, DNA, Trace etc.

- Check out ballistics and trace evidence and then see whether tests exist to determine whether or not someone has handled cartridges from lead on hand swabs.  I know the answer but if you check it out yourself you might conclude I am right in this regard.   

Please do not conflate with GSR.  GSR has a clear definition and this is not what Brian Elliot testified on at trial.  We are talking levels of lead from handling cartridges not GSR from firearm discharge. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?