Author Topic: What is the provenance of the joint time line.  (Read 6842 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« on: January 29, 2018, 12:32:15 AM »
What is the provenance of the joint time line presented to the PJ before the  10th May?

the file concerned has the title "SEQUENCE OF EVENTS: THURSDAY 3rd MAY 2007
20.30 TO 22.00 AS RECALLED BY TAPAS 9" 
886 to 890 Letter from PJ regarding written TAPAS timeline (English)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

"Page 886
Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
========================================
[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
 Original written in English. 
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:

Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B

Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge. "

Do they all mention contributing to the time line. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 12:44:33 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2018, 12:56:38 AM »
There seems to be confirmation that the two handwritten time lines were done by Russell.
"Processos Vol X
Page 2577
Terms of Joining

On this date, due to being considered of interest to the investigation, joined to the files are two cover sheets of a children’s book, with handwritten notes on the inside covers, which were provided to this police force on the night of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann by one of those who feature in the case files and a member of the McCann couple group of friends, named Russell O’Brien.

The present terms of joining was drawn up and will be signed.

Portimão, 9th September 2007.

Signed

Inspector Ricardo Paiva"  (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm#p10p2567 Is the source of that text in the PJ file.)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:06:43 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2018, 01:13:06 AM »
Sadie mentioned the laptop was borrowed from Georgina the tennis coach.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Georgina_Jackson.htm


Russell's rogatory:
" Reply    “Erm you know that we should probably sit down and do this, I think he was quite keen to write it about the whole holiday before the weekend and after erm, I mean in retrospect I think I wish we, I wish we had, erm but we, we settled to do the, you know the immediate period that evening, erm it was typed, I typed it and it was typed on a borrowed laptop from err the tennis coach of Mark WARNER who’s called Georgina, the surname of, of who, I don’t think we have ever, ever known, erm we compiled it over the course of probably a, a couple of sittings during one day.  Kate and Gerry by this point after the weekend were, well they were having meetings with the likes of Alan PIKE the Psychologist that came out to, to see them and they were, they were often erm organising things and speaking to people, the Consulate etc., etc., etc., so we actually saw err you know probably less and less of them as the days wore on, so they weren’t here with the initial draft of it, but we just left their comments to be added later and then we told them that we’d done this and they came, err read it through, added in the bits that were relevant to when you know, when, what they saw and err and when they left the table, as well as the time line erm Jane gave a, a full, as full as possible description of the person she thought she saw carrying a child that may have been Madeleine away and I think erm there’s also a fair amount of detail about some suspicions from, from Gerry that the room might have been in a slightly different way, err than what it was based on his and Matt’s observations of going into the room.

 

So we got, we, we wrote this, we wrote this down very much to try and get a, a permanent record of what we thought as accurate as general as a thought had been in the group, erm having (inaudible), it’s important to say cos we’ve, I get the impression from again you know, from the Police perhaps but, but certainly from what comes out in the Press, that this has been perceived by the PJ as an attempt to, to sort of standardise our answers and you know and make sure that we’re all saying the same thing, it certainly wasn’t created with that intention, it was very much that the original statements were, were brief, were obviously prone to translational difficulties and you know, at no point have we concealed this, I turned up on my second interview and presented them with the, with the stick and said, ‘look we’ve sat down, it’s all typed, we think this is quite accurate, there you go’, so you know, it’s been, it was, it was, it was really quite hard for, you know to hear that, or at least hear the fact be implied that the Police felt that this was some, some conspiracy to try and err and cover things up, this was, this was done to go over the events, down on paper before they become, inevitably they got less and less clear in our mind and we were transparent in that we gave this to the Police at the very next meeting, there was no attempt to conceal this and have this as a hidden document that we were all reading from”.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:25:17 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 06:44:13 AM »
Russell says all the Tapas 9 agreed to the timeline but only 4 of them mention the sequence of event document (timeline document)
Russell and Jane
Matt and Rachael  Mention it.

Kate Gerry Dianne Fiona and David don't.  That seems too artificial to be honest.  IMO a bit strange.
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Offline sadie

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2018, 11:47:42 PM »
Sadie mentioned the laptop was borrowed from Georgina the tennis coach.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Georgina_Jackson.htm  -snip-

No not me, Rob.  That was someone else, it was news to me.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2018, 03:57:39 AM »
No not me, Rob.  That was someone else, it was news to me.
Sorry about that Sadie.
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Offline sadie

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 12:23:10 AM »
Russell says all the Tapas 9 agreed to the timeline but only 4 of them mention the sequence of event document (timeline document)
Russell and Jane
Matt and Rachael  Mention it.

Kate Gerry Dianne Fiona and David don't.  That seems too artificial to be honest.  IMO a bit strange.

Well Kate and Gerry were elsewhere with officials whilst most of it was composed.  Gerry just added bits later, so it was not like putting all the effort into getting it accurate as possible.  Because of this and everything else going on, upset etc. It probably didn't register on their brains in the same way as it did with the others.

As for David and Fiona, dunno, but as Kates best friend Fiona might have stuck with her , as support, most of the time.  Same with Dave supporting Gerry .... or maybe they did the looking after the twins whilst all the official stuff, interviews etc. was going on, so neither were they much involved with the timeline.  We just dont know, do we?

We just don't know do we, but personally Rob, I find nothing irregular about the situation

Offline G-Unit

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 07:43:21 AM »
Well Kate and Gerry were elsewhere with officials whilst most of it was composed.  Gerry just added bits later, so it was not like putting all the effort into getting it accurate as possible.  Because of this and everything else going on, upset etc. It probably didn't register on their brains in the same way as it did with the others.

As for David and Fiona, dunno, but as Kates best friend Fiona might have stuck with her , as support, most of the time.  Same with Dave supporting Gerry .... or maybe they did the looking after the twins whilst all the official stuff, interviews etc. was going on, so neither were they much involved with the timeline.  We just dont know, do we?

We just don't know do we, but personally Rob, I find nothing irregular about the situation

We certainly don't know what any of them were thinking or feeling, but we know that after after their family arrived the McCanns didn't really see their holiday friends. If they didn't all make sure the timeline was accurate it was a waste of time doing it and handing it to the police.



Fiona and Dave only saw the McCanns in the evenings;

every night generally I'd text Kate to say I'm coming over and my mum would look after our kids and Dave and I would go over to their apartment
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Jane on the timeline and on seeing the McCanns after 3rd;

But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and did, did it........


4078    “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?”

Reply    “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all.  I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 08:26:18 AM »
We certainly don't know what any of them were thinking or feeling, but we know that after after their family arrived the McCanns didn't really see their holiday friends. If they didn't all make sure the timeline was accurate it was a waste of time doing it and handing it to the police.



Fiona and Dave only saw the McCanns in the evenings;

every night generally I'd text Kate to say I'm coming over and my mum would look after our kids and Dave and I would go over to their apartment
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Jane on the timeline and on seeing the McCanns after 3rd;

But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and did, did it........


4078    “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?”

Reply    “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all.  I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Can you find any evidence that the joint agreed time line involved the Payne family?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 08:48:15 AM »
Can you find any evidence that the joint agreed time line involved the Payne family?

It involved all seven sitting down together unless you think Jane is lying? She did say she thought it was Dave's idea, but I didn't include that bit.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 11:22:38 AM »
It involved all seven sitting down together unless you think Jane is lying? She did say she thought it was Dave's idea, but I didn't include that bit.
"But we all did it together, we sort of all sat"  No actual tally there.  Could mean all 6 of them not 9.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 11:48:07 AM »
"But we all did it together, we sort of all sat"  No actual tally there.  Could mean all 6 of them not 9.

These are mature, intelligent people giving information to the police about the disappearance of a child. If they allowed their names to be added to a document without having any input or with which they disagreed then they were very foolish.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 11:59:38 AM »
These are mature, intelligent people giving information to the police about the disappearance of a child. If they allowed their names to be added to a document without having any input or with which they disagreed then they were very foolish.
the only bit that mentions the Paynes was this sentence "2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table." 
Doesn't Dianne appear to be unaware of that in the next interview?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: What is the provenance of the joint time line.
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 01:49:02 PM »
the only bit that mentions the Paynes was this sentence "2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table." 
Doesn't Dianne appear to be unaware of that in the next interview?

A good example of why a joint timeline should never have been attempted. People are interviewed to find out what they saw and what they remember. Dianne clearly had no recollection of meeting Matthew so she should not have allowed her name to go on that timeline. Very foolish in my opinion.
 
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

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