Author Topic: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?  (Read 495 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« on: February 14, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
I have always thought SC's 'found' position as per soc images doesn't look right ie it looks to me that SC was moved.  Question is by whom?  JB or EP?  I have always thought EP raid team moved SC as she was blocking the entrance to the box room and the raid team in its haste to make safe the property wanted to establish what was behind the door.  There is some support for this by way of WS's from PC's Collins, Delgado and A/PS Woodcock in that their WS's slightly contradict as to where they went after identifying June and SC in the main bedroom.  PC's Collins and Delgado state they entered the box room to search it and A/PS Woodcock states they left the main bedroom and went across to SC's bedroom.  A handwritten note exists where officers state SC's position and the bible looked different from how they initially viewed the soc.

The pathologist said the second gsw was immediately fatal and would result in SC's head falling backwards.  To my mind this would mean her head would end up wedged against NB's bedside cabinet and yet in the soc images it is to the left of NB's bedside cabinet on the carpet.  Dr Vanezis trial testimony attached where he states based on the blood staining and wounds SC was partially sitting up, maybe on her left side and having sustained the second gsw would immediately fall backwards.  Prof Knight for the defence at trial said similar.

At the 2002 appeal hearing the prosecution called for fresh evidence in this regard.  The appeal court judges heard the evidence but said they would not allow it in any event as it was something that could have been adjudicated on at trial:

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

I think Mr Ismail is probably correct with the above.  Question is who moved SC: EP or JB?  Imo EP.

This again shows how inept the experts and lawyers were at JB's trial in that this aspect of the case was overlooked.  Maybe the prosecution didn't pursue this knowing it was involved in disturbing the soc. 

It also once again shows how inept MT QC was at JB's 2002 hearing in that he made a meal out of disturbance of soc in the kitchen but completely overlooked the disturbance of soc in the bedroom ie SC's body.  I have no real idea whether or not the soc was disturbed in the kitchen but even if it was I don't see how it precludes SC or JB?  Whereas SC clearly could not have moved herself after the second gsw so either EP moved her or JB did. 



Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 04:59:19 PM »
A/PS Woodcock's WS states SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet and yet to my eyes the soc images show SC's head flat on the floor.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

Soc images - viewer discretion advised:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=images+sheila+caffell&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB782GB782&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn6dTM7qXZAhXMJ8AKHVK1D-4QsAQIJg&biw=940&bih=559#imgdii=T2Z-5wdxyrX9RM:&imgrc=WrNAnQXaEdMPJM:

It seems there's a clear discrepancy here between A/PS Woodcock's WS and SoC images.  If A/PS Woodcock is correct in his recollections of SC's head slightly raised against the cabinet and soc images show her head flat to the floor it can only mean Mr Ismail was correct in that SC had indeed been moved but it wasn't by JB it was by EP.

(As an aside I didn't think anyone observed the two gsw's at soc but it seems A/PS Woodcock did).

Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 07:23:15 PM »
I have always thought SC's 'found' position as per soc images doesn't look right ie it looks to me that SC was moved.  Question is by whom?  JB or EP?  I have always thought EP raid team moved SC as she was blocking the entrance to the box room and the raid team in its haste to make safe the property wanted to establish what was behind the door.  There is some support for this by way of WS's from PC's Collins, Delgado and A/PS Woodcock in that their WS's slightly contradict as to where they went after identifying June and SC in the main bedroom.  PC's Collins and Delgado state they entered the box room to search it and A/PS Woodcock states they left the main bedroom and went across to SC's bedroom.  A handwritten note exists where officers state SC's position and the bible looked different from how they initially viewed the soc.

The pathologist said the second gsw was immediately fatal and would result in SC's head falling backwards.  To my mind this would mean her head would end up wedged against NB's bedside cabinet and yet in the soc images it is to the left of NB's bedside cabinet on the carpet.  Dr Vanezis trial testimony attached where he states based on the blood staining and wounds SC was partially sitting up, maybe on her left side and having sustained the second gsw would immediately fall backwards.  Prof Knight for the defence at trial said similar.

At the 2002 appeal hearing the prosecution called for fresh evidence in this regard.  The appeal court judges heard the evidence but said they would not allow it in any event as it was something that could have been adjudicated on at trial:

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give.From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

I think Mr Ismail is probably correct with the above.  Question is who moved SC: EP or JB?  Imo EP.

This again shows how inept the experts and lawyers were at JB's trial in that this aspect of the case was overlooked.  Maybe the prosecution didn't pursue this knowing it was involved in disturbing the soc. 

It also once again shows how inept MT QC was at JB's 2002 hearing in that he made a meal out of disturbance of soc in the kitchen but completely overlooked the disturbance of soc in the bedroom ie SC's body.  I have no real idea whether or not the soc was disturbed in the kitchen but even if it was I don't see how it precludes SC or JB?  Whereas SC clearly could not have moved herself after the second gsw so either EP moved her or JB did.

I've highlighted Mr Ismail's evidence above whereby he concludes SC's head was propped against NB's bedside cabinet.  This tallies with A/PS Woodcock's WS whereby he states SC's head was slightly raised against NB's bedside cabinet:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

Given the soc images show SC's head flat on the floor I think this is pretty clear evidence EP moved SC for whatever reason(s).

It really calls into question JB's representation at his 2002 appeal and MT QC's competence. 

Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline adam

Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 09:10:11 AM »
This relates to my last post in the COA thread.

A section of the COA is about Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot. The OS, CT etc have never brought this up as they are in a no win situation.

It firstly highlights it happened. Then they would have to accuse the police of not following crime scene protocol & pulling Sheila's legs for no reason. Then accuse the police of denying they did it. All extremley unlikely.

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 12:27:22 PM »
This relates to my last post in the COA thread.

A section of the COA is about Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot. The OS, CT etc have never brought this up as they are in a no win situation.

It firstly highlights it happened. Then they would have to accuse the police of not following crime scene protocol & pulling Sheila's legs for no reason. Then accuse the police of denying they did it. All extremley unlikely.

Assuming the lawyers at trial and '89/'02 appeals had access to A/PS Woodcock's WS and it's authentic it is something they should have used against the prosecution.  Instead the prosecution sort of got away with using it against JB at his 2002 appeal hearing. 

A/PS Woodcock's WS:

"I was aware that Sheila BAMBER was lying flat with her head slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker".

The soc images clearly show SC's head flat on the floor to the left of the bedside cabinet so it's clear EP moved SC.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

The police can deny they did it but if A/PS Woodcock's WS is authentic it is there in black and white and supported by the testimony of forensic scientist Mr Ismail ie SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet when she sustained the second gsw.  A/PS was one of the first into the main bedroom along with PC's Collins and Delgado.  A/PS Woodcock's WS is very detailed as might be expected from someone in his position.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Caroline

Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 06:48:37 PM »
Assuming the lawyers at trial and '89/'02 appeals had access to A/PS Woodcock's WS and it's authentic it is something they should have used against the prosecution.  Instead the prosecution sort of got away with using it against JB at his 2002 appeal hearing. 

A/PS Woodcock's WS:

"I was aware that Sheila BAMBER was lying flat with her head slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker".

The soc images clearly show SC's head flat on the floor to the left of the bedside cabinet so it's clear EP moved SC.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

The police can deny they did it but if A/PS Woodcock's WS is authentic it is there in black and white and supported by the testimony of forensic scientist Mr Ismail ie SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet when she sustained the second gsw.  A/PS was one of the first into the main bedroom along with PC's Collins and Delgado.  A/PS Woodcock's WS is very detailed as might be expected from someone in his position.

Yes, but he is one person that viewed the scene. Had they all said that, there might be something in it but it was one person. Is he the only one with the correct account and everyone else wrong?

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 07:59:27 PM »
Yes, but he is one person that viewed the scene. Had they all said that, there might be something in it but it was one person. Is he the only one with the correct account and everyone else wrong?

I don't think it's a case that A/PS Woodcock was correct and everyone else wrong more a case A/PS Woodcock was big on detail as evidenced by the length of his 10 page WS whereas the average length of WS's from other members of the raid team was 3.9 pages.  Also not every member of the raid team went into the main bedroom.  When was SC moved and who moved her?  It may well be only 2 or 3 officers observed SC with her head propped against the bedside cabinet.  It would seem those responsible for moving her want to fall under the radar too. 

A bit of a coincidence that Martyn Ismail a forensic scientist called by the prosecution at '02 appeal also said when SC sustained the 2nd gsw her head was propped against the bedside cabinet.  Lol the prosecution almost got away with using the police disturbing the soc against JB with the judges commenting that it was another "formidable string to the prosecutions bow" and "in itself could have led to a conclusion of guilt".
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:22:00 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 08:41:32 PM »
Also just remembered there's a handwritten note from members of the raid team stating SC's position in soc images along with the bible looked different from their initial recollections. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 08:44:52 PM »
Also just remembered there's a handwritten note from members of the raid team stating SC's position in soc images along with the bible looked different from their initial recollections.

David I don't have the note.  Can you post it up please if you have it.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Caroline

Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 08:47:11 PM »
Also just remembered there's a handwritten note from members of the raid team stating SC's position in soc images along with the bible looked different from their initial recollections.

But not that her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet.

MI didn't actually see the body in situ so not really sure how he came to that conclusion.

The raid team made statements quite a few weeks after the event and looking at pictures to refresh their memory might actually distort it.

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 09:33:32 PM »
But not that her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet.

No just that SC and the bible looked different from their initial recollections.

MI didn't actually see the body in situ so not really sure how he came to that conclusion.

Neither did the appeal court judges but they were happy to rely on it and hang JB on the basis they thought he was responsible for moving SC.  You can read how MI came to his conclusions in CoA point 518. 

The raid team made statements quite a few weeks after the event and looking at pictures to refresh their memory might actually distort it.

Some made WS's on the 7th eg PC Collins and PC Delgado who were first in the main bedroom.  Whether they all made WS's on 7th and the later ones superceded earlier ones when the investigation changed shape I don't know.

I think it's fairly conclusive SC was moved by EP.  A/PS Woodcock was the most senior police officer to first observe SC and he noted in his WS SC's head was propped against the bedside cabinet.  Some 17 years later a forensic scientist for the prosecution said exactly the same thing.  Obviously the forensic scientist didn't consider EP moved SC so by default it had to have been JB.  All oblivious to A/PS Woodcock's WS.

Haven't you always said SC looked staged? 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline adam

Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 09:02:25 AM »
Why would EP pull Sheila's legs before the photographer arrived ? Can't think of any reason to.

It is a serious breach of crime scene protocol. They said they moved Sheila's lower arm in between photos & said why. But to pull her body.

There are lots of reasons why Bamber would move Sheila after the second shot.

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2018, 11:06:00 AM »
Why would EP pull Sheila's legs before the photographer arrived ? Can't think of any reason to.

According to A/PS Woodcock and forensic scientist Martin Ismail SC's head was propped against the bedside cabinet so strong evidence SC was moved before SoC images were taken.  Why?  Ghastly as it may sound one or more officers may have been on the hunt for cash or other valuables.  Where do people keep valuables?  Bedside cabinets, under matresses etc.  This would also explain the relatives finding NB's wallet empty and June's handbags devoid of cash.

It is a serious breach of crime scene protocol. They said they moved Sheila's lower arm in between photos & said why. But to pull her body.

Yes it is a serious breach but if you're greedy and think you can get away with it you might take the opportunity to do so.

There are lots of reasons why Bamber would move Sheila after the second shot.

The evidence supports EP moving SC not JB. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6132
  • Total likes: 114
  • Bamber Campaign For Freedom, How Can I Help?!
Re: Was SC moved in the bedroom? If so by whom?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2018, 04:55:41 PM »
Other evidence supporting SC being moved after she was found by the raid team and before being photographed comes from Prof Herbert MacDonell.



Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92