Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence

[Carana]

I’m sorry Lace but Eddie does not alert to blood that has been removed.

Keela didn't, according to Grime. I've never seen anything to suggest that Eddie didn't.

[faithlilly]

You know this how?

I shall post this clip again -

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.

Where does this clip come from Lace ?

[Brietta]

Where does this clip come from Lace ?

http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

[faithlilly]

http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

1998 ? I’m sure our knowledge of cadaver dogs has moved on since this paper was written.

[Brietta]

1998 ? I’m sure our knowledge of cadaver dogs has moved on since this paper was written.

Mine has certainly progressed by leaps and bounds ... but back in the nineties it appears a lack of in-depth knowledge allowed a lot of anomalies to enter the evidence chain allowing some really weird occurrences not least among which was the get out of jail free card given to quite a few Swedish murderers.

One only has to consider Thomas Quick the serial killer who never was ... and Zampo the sniffer dog who checked out each murder site + no DNA evidence, no fingerprint evidence, no eye witness evidence or production of murder weapons.
There was even eye witness evidence that Quick had a cast iron alibi for some of his confessed murders.

Quick was convicted of over thirty murders without a shred of evidence to support a single one and in one case despite semen which was not a match for his DNA being found on the victim's body.

Snip
"Zampo marked for human remains 45 times at those 24 locations. Not a single trace of blood or body parts was ever found ... "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/thomas-quick-bergwall-sweden-murder


So as you so rightly pointed out, our knowledge in 2018 is far more refined as once unknown words such as "putrescine and cadaverine" slip from our keyboards with an ease impossible for us in 2007.
But that was the sum of our knowledge way back then reliant on studies such as that of 1998 ... at least at present we are now aware that evidence does not consist of "dogs don't lie" ... and if we ever doubt that we need only think of Zampo.

 

[Lace]

1998 ? I’m sure our knowledge of cadaver dogs has moved on since this paper was written.

Has it?   How would you train a cadaver dog not to alert to something that he is trained to alert to such as blood?  Grime himself says the cadaver scent remains,   so could the scent of blood.

[faithlilly]

Mine has certainly progressed by leaps and bounds ... but back in the nineties it appears a lack of in-depth knowledge allowed a lot of anomalies to enter the evidence chain allowing some really weird occurrences not least among which was the get out of jail free card given to quite a few Swedish murderers.

One only has to consider Thomas Quick the serial killer who never was ... and Zampo the sniffer dog who checked out each murder site + no DNA evidence, no fingerprint evidence, no eye witness evidence or production of murder weapons.
There was even eye witness evidence that Quick had a cast iron alibi for some of his confessed murders.

Quick was convicted of over thirty murders without a shred of evidence to support a single one and in one case despite semen which was not a match for his DNA being found on the victim's body.

Snip
"Zampo marked for human remains 45 times at those 24 locations. Not a single trace of blood or body parts was ever found ... "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/thomas-quick-bergwall-sweden-murder


So as you so rightly pointed out, our knowledge in 2018 is far more refined as once unknown words such as "putrescine and cadaverine" slip from our keyboards with an ease impossible for us in 2007.
But that was the sum of our knowledge way back then reliant on studies such as that of 1998 ... at least at present we are now aware that evidence does not consist of "dogs don't lie" ... and if we ever doubt that we need only think of Zampo.

I’m not interested in your or my knowledge but the professionals who do actually know what they are talking about and posting a research paper which is twenty years old as some kind of proof of a cadaver dog’s fallibility is ridiculous in the extreme.

As to Zampo he is described as a sniffer dog, and not a very well trained one at that. As far as we can tell he was neither an EVRD dog like Eddie nor a blood dog like Keela and was used by people who obviously didn’t know what they were doing.so any likeness to the McCann case ends right there, no matter how hard you try to push those ‘similarities’.

[Mr Gray]

I’m not interested in your or my knowledge but the professionals who do actually know what they are talking about and posting a research paper which is twenty years old as some kind of proof of a cadaver dog’s fallibility is ridiculous in the extreme.

As to Zampo he is described as a sniffer dog, and not a very well trained one at that. As far as we can tell he was neither an EVRD dog like Eddie nor a blood dog like Keela and was used by people who obviously didn’t know what they were doing.so any likeness to the McCann case ends right there, no matter how hard you try to push those ‘similarities’.

You need to listen ti the, experts
Grime said that the alerts were suggestive... That's, all
Not confirmed... Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand  the, evidence

[Robittybob1]

1998 ? I’m sure our knowledge of cadaver dogs has moved on since this paper was written.

I read the paper and I would say what was found was sound and won't change  with time.

[faithlilly]

You need to listen ti the, experts
Grime said that the alerts were suggestive... That's, all
Not confirmed... Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand  the, evidence

Ever wondered why there was no ‘suggestive’ alerts in any other apartment searched by Eddie ?

[Robittybob1]

Ever wondered why there was no ‘suggestive’ alerts in any other apartment searched by Eddie ?

You know you can say things like that, and that it is only Madeleine who is missing, and no one else is known to have died in the apartment 5A.  OK it looks bad but there is no corroborating evidence found to confirm that the alerts had any positive connection to Madeleine McCann.

[Mr Gray]

You know you can say things like that, and that it is only Madeleine who is missing, and no one else is known to have died in the apartment 5A.  OK it looks bad but there is no corroborating evidence found to confirm that the alerts had any positive connection to Madeleine McCann.

It doesn't look badat all when you understand  why it happened ...it makes, the, alerts look bad

[Robittybob1]

It doesn't look badat all when you understand  why it happened ...it makes, the, alerts look bad

So are you saying you know why it happened?

[Robittybob1]

We are told by Grime that Eddie’s behaviour changed profoundly when entering 5a. Obviously that didn’t happen when entering the other apartments.

and Grime repeatedly said there would need to be corroborating evidence found to confirm the alerts.

[kizzy]

You need to listen ti the, experts
Grime said that the alerts were suggestive... That's, all
Not confirmed... Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand  the, evidence

Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand  the, evidence



What actual evidence is there - that mccanns are innocent, none.

What actual evidence is there - that maddie was abducted, none.