Author Topic: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence  (Read 151667 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #645 on: March 11, 2018, 08:41:50 AM »
DCI Redwood also said back in 2013(?) he believed it quite possible that Madeleine was still alive, which suggests that the dog alerts were not the weighty piece of evidence that some would have us believe.

Digging up the mound is also suggestive of if she left the apartment alive it wasn't for very long.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline jassi

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #646 on: March 11, 2018, 08:50:12 AM »
DCI Redwood also said back in 2013(?) he believed it quite possible that Madeleine was still alive, which suggests that the dog alerts were not the weighty piece of evidence that some would have us believe.

No, it means the evidence was inconclusive and that he was keeping his options open.  IMO
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline G-Unit

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #647 on: March 11, 2018, 08:53:28 AM »
Digging up the mound is also suggestive of if she left the apartment alive it wasn't for very long.

They weren't looking for a live child or an abductor there, were they?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #648 on: March 11, 2018, 08:54:38 AM »
DCI Redwood also said back in 2013(?) he believed it quite possible that Madeleine was still alive, which suggests that the dog alerts were not the weighty piece of evidence that some would have us believe. 

No, it means the evidence was inconclusive and that he was keeping his options open.  IMO

Four years on Rowley couldn't confim either way,the investigation must be at an impasse.imo
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #649 on: March 11, 2018, 08:57:08 AM »
They weren't looking for a live child or an abductor there, were they?

It could have been where one of the private investigators thought she was being kept in a secret lair.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #650 on: March 11, 2018, 09:21:05 AM »
IMO, VRDs can be an invaluable asset. Just a couple of weeks ago, they were able to locate the remains of the abducted little French girl (RIP little one) in quite challenging terrain and weather.

As most of us will remember, in the Shannon case the dog correctly alerted to cadaver odour, but for a totally irrelevant reason.

In the debrief below, there is also reference to questions about their reliability and mentions unnamed other cases in which their use "had the potential to cause complications".

As the debrief doesn't elaborate further, there's no way of knowing what was meant by "reliability". Correctly alerting to irrelevant cadaver odour? Alerting to substances or odours indicative of human decomposition within their "training parameters" but which did not involve death?


From the NPIA debrief of the Shannon Matthews case, for anyone interested...


Strategic Debrief
Operation Paris: The Investigation into the Disappearance of Shannon Matthews


• Victim recovery dogs were used to search the homes of significant TIEs 

and other priority locations. In all,
9 victim recovery dogs were used from 4 forces, but dogs and handlers are trained to different standards and so some caution was required in deploying them. The deployment of victim recovery dogs was considered to be very useful and West Yorkshire Police have decided to train more of their own.

(...)

Issues for National Consideration

Victim Recovery Dogs

The victim recovery dogs used in this operation were drawn from four different forces. It emerged that each force has its own training and deployment policy and so there is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done. Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers, or record keeping of the success rate they achieve. This makes it difficult for SIOs to interpret the indication that 
a dog gives in any given situation and may lead 
to the expenditure of large resources in following up an indication from a dog with no way of knowing how reliable that indication was in the first place. ACPO is currently examining this issue due to a number of recent cases where the use of victim recovery dogs has had the potential to cause complications in an enquiry.

The properties that the dogs searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture.

The value of these dogs is undoubted, but there is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment and better information for SIOs about their use. The NPIA is currently working with the ACPO Strategic Dogs Working Group to resolve these issues.


http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Operation-Paris.pdf

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #651 on: March 11, 2018, 10:14:28 AM »
The Met use cadaver dogs regularly so wont be as eager to dismiss their alerts as some supporters.
That is something of a non sequitur - in my opinion.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #652 on: March 11, 2018, 10:17:49 AM »
No, it means the evidence was inconclusive and that he was keeping his options open.  IMO
Faithlilly contended that the Met believe the dog evidence held considerable weight (though actually doesn't provide any evidence of this).  The fact that the Met have made several statements clearly indicating they believe Madeleine may have left the apartment alive and may even yet BE alive shows that whatever weight they have placed on the alerts it is not a particularly weighty weight.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline faithlilly

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #653 on: March 11, 2018, 10:25:45 AM »
Faithlilly contended that the Met believe the dog evidence held considerable weight (though actually doesn't provide any evidence of this).  The fact that the Met have made several statements clearly indicating they believe Madeleine may have left the apartment alive and may even yet BE alive shows that whatever weight they have placed on the alerts it is not a particularly weighty weight.

‘Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine was abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.’

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline jassi

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #654 on: March 11, 2018, 10:37:42 AM »
Faithlilly contended that the Met believe the dog evidence held considerable weight (though actually doesn't provide any evidence of this).  The fact that the Met have made several statements clearly indicating they believe Madeleine may have left the apartment alive and may even yet BE alive shows that whatever weight they have placed on the alerts it is not a particularly weighty weight.

No, it means they have no incontrovertible evidence either way.
They may well have their suspicions, but no hard evidence. Again IMO
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #655 on: March 11, 2018, 10:38:22 AM »
Faithlilly contended that the Met believe the dog evidence held considerable weight (though actually doesn't provide any evidence of this).  The fact that the Met have made several statements clearly indicating they believe Madeleine may have left the apartment alive and may even yet BE alive shows that whatever weight they have placed on the alerts it is not a particularly weighty weight.

The truth of the matter is that no one knows what SY are investigating,they have no definitive answer into whether the child is alive or dead,that being the case there are no leads imo.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #656 on: March 11, 2018, 10:42:19 AM »
‘Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine was abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.’

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

The same piece also has this.

Quote
Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine was abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #657 on: March 11, 2018, 10:44:05 AM »
‘Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine was abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.’

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Where is the reference to the weight given to the dog alerts in this statement?  Consider this:  the Met has spent £11m+ on an investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.  If they were in any way convinced that the dog alerts were correct, then what do you think they have been spending their money on?  If the McCanns were behind Madeleine's disappearance then by now the only way to prove this would be to elicit a confession as we know that there is no forensic evidence to link them to any foul play.  What better way to put pressure on them than for the Met to signal to them (indirectly) that they believed them responsible by giving great weight to the dog alerts.  If the Met said we are almost certain Madeleine died in the apartment then that very much narrows it down to the McCanns without outright accusing them.  The pressure on them would be immense.  But they haven't done that have they?  Instead they have spent £11+ million on investigating numerous other lines of investigation - why have they done that, in your opinion?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #658 on: March 11, 2018, 10:45:00 AM »
Faithlilly contended that the Met believe the dog evidence held considerable weight (though actually doesn't provide any evidence of this).  The fact that the Met have made several statements clearly indicating they believe Madeleine may have left the apartment alive and may even yet BE alive shows that whatever weight they have placed on the alerts it is not a particularly weighty weight.

Mark Rowley back in April last year.

Quote
We don't have evidence telling us if Madeleine is alive or dead.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline barrier

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #659 on: March 11, 2018, 10:48:41 AM »
Where is the reference to the weight given to the dog alerts in this statement?  Consider this:  the Met has spent £11m+ on an investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.  If they were in any way convinced that the dog alerts were correct, then what do you think they have been spending their money on?  If the McCanns were behind Madeleine's disappearance then by now the only way to prove this would be to elicit a confession as we know that there is no forensic evidence to link them to any foul play.  What better way to put pressure on them than for the Met to signal to them (indirectly) that they believed them responsible by giving great weight to the dog alerts.  If the Met said we are almost certain Madeleine died in the apartment then that very much narrows it down to the McCanns without outright accusing them.  The pressure on them would be immense.  But they haven't done that have they?  Instead they have spent £11+ million on investigating numerous other lines of investigation - why have they done that, in your opinion?

That £11 million gets as far as this.

Quote
We don't have evidence telling us if Madeleine is alive or dead.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.