Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence

[misty]

You did take that seriously: "You too need to brush up on the duties of the expert witness"!

It's what I do when trying to disguise the fact I'm an idiot.

[misty]

Here's the section in the CÓDIGO DE PROCESSO PENAL Lei 48/2007, de 29 de Agosto re experts:

CAPÍTULO VI
Da prova pericial

*snipped*
Artigo 163.o
Valor da prova pericial
1 — O juízo técnico, científico ou artístico inerente à prova pericial presume-se subtraído à livre apreciação do julgador.
2 — Sempre que a convicção do julgador divergir do juízo contido no parecer dos peritos, deve aquele fundamentar a divergência.

,,,Article 163
Value of forensic evidence
1 — the technical, scientific or artistic judgment inherent in the forensic evidence is assumed to be subtracted from the judge's free judgement.
2 — where the conviction of the judge differs from the judgment contained in the opinion of the experts, it shall substantiate the divergence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What's your interpretation of that clause, please, Carana?

[pathfinder73]

Robbie Coltrane's new series features the Suzanne Pilley case and say that the cadaver dog alerts were critical evidence.

"The dogs provide the evidence and gave support that Suzanne had been murdered." "They are a remarkable tool."  "Where the car boot was situated in the garage, the dog gave an alert at that spot." Now the investigation focused on David Gilroy. Detective Chief Inspector Gary Flannigan

from "Robbie Coltrane's Critical Evidence" Series 2 Episode 8 "Into Thin Air"

"The cadaver dog provided critical evidence."

[Brietta]

Robbie Coltrane's new series features the Suzanne Pilley case and say that the cadaver dog alerts were critical evidence.

"The dogs provide the evidence and gave support that Suzanne had been murdered." "They are a remarkable tool."  "Where the car boot was situated in the garage, the dog gave an alert at that spot." Now the investigation focused on David Gilroy. Detective Chief Inspector Gary Flannigan

from "Robbie Coltrane's Critical Evidence" Series 2 Episode 8 "Into Thin Air"

"The cadaver dog provided critical evidence."

In my opinion the indications provided by the cadaver dog in areas where it is likely Suzanne Pilley's remains had lain for some time, reinforced compelling evidence of CCTV footage/phone pings which proved that David Gilroy's apparently hastily arranged work related car journey had taken longer than necessary and had included evidence of off-road activity.

I think the dog indications assisted police to form an opinion about what may have been part of the sequence of events in Suzanne's disappearance ... but they were not stand alone evidence ... Gilroy was convicted as a result of an accumulation of evidence, including having a motive before the event and as a result of his actions afterwards.
Unfortunately the CCTV footage of Suzanne outside her workplace did not actually record her entering the building but obviously the jury were of the opinion the police had gathered enough evidence for them to return a guilty verdict.


Snip
Gilroy's mistake was to underestimate the huge electronic footprint that became a compelling body of evidence.

After analysing CCTV evidence, police had recreated a journey he made to Argyll and back three times.

They discovered Mr Gilroy had taken two hours longer than their average time each way.

And a comparison of fuel consumption suggested there were 124 miles unaccounted for.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colleagues described him as seeming clammy, sweaty and with scratches on his neck and face. But he got his act together.

He made an excuse to go home and collect the car. He bought air freshners in Superdrug on Princes Street.

He used make-up to cover scratch marks on his hands.

He adjusted his diary to give him a reason to go to Argyll the following day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the court prosecution pointed out, Mr Gilroy, who was the one person with intimate knowledge of Ms Pilley, had gone on a journey of "no importance" the day after she had disappeared instead of "assisting the police inquiry".

He returned home that night and spent the evening with his family, all the time Ms Pilley's body was in the boot of his car.

He had made a journey to Lochgilphead, to check on a school his firm was overseeing.

However, he did not take a direct route and instead headed much further north.

He was logged at Tyndrum at 13:22, then Inveraray at 15:51 before arriving at Lochgilphead at 16:26.

Gilroy's car suspension was found by investigators to be badly damaged and it had vegetation stuck underneath.

They were convinced he had driven off road.

Detectives were certain he had detoured along the A83 to somewhere near the beauty spot, Rest and Be Thankful, with enough time to dispose of Ms Pilley's body.

A targeted, intensive search was organised for a weekend in August. The terrain was tough and ultimately Ms Pilley's body was not found.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-17358340

[misty]

Robbie Coltrane's new series features the Suzanne Pilley case and say that the cadaver dog alerts were critical evidence.

"The dogs provide the evidence and gave support that Suzanne had been murdered." "They are a remarkable tool."  "Where the car boot was situated in the garage, the dog gave an alert at that spot." Now the investigation focused on David Gilroy. Detective Chief Inspector Gary Flannigan

from "Robbie Coltrane's Critical Evidence" Series 2 Episode 8 "Into Thin Air"

"The cadaver dog provided critical evidence."

2 dogs were used. Did one fail to alert to the car boot?

[G-Unit]

In my opinion the indications provided by the cadaver dog in areas where it is likely Suzanne Pilley's remains had lain for some time, reinforced compelling evidence of CCTV footage/phone pings which proved that David Gilroy's apparently hastily arranged work related car journey had taken longer than necessary and had included evidence of off-road activity.

I think the dog indications assisted police to form an opinion about what may have been part of the sequence of events in Suzanne's disappearance ... but they were not stand alone evidence ... Gilroy was convicted as a result of an accumulation of evidence, including having a motive before the event and as a result of his actions afterwards.
Unfortunately the CCTV footage of Suzanne outside her workplace did not actually record her entering the building but obviously the jury were of the opinion the police had gathered enough evidence for them to return a guilty verdict.


Snip
Gilroy's mistake was to underestimate the huge electronic footprint that became a compelling body of evidence.

After analysing CCTV evidence, police had recreated a journey he made to Argyll and back three times.

They discovered Mr Gilroy had taken two hours longer than their average time each way.

And a comparison of fuel consumption suggested there were 124 miles unaccounted for.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colleagues described him as seeming clammy, sweaty and with scratches on his neck and face. But he got his act together.

He made an excuse to go home and collect the car. He bought air freshners in Superdrug on Princes Street.

He used make-up to cover scratch marks on his hands.

He adjusted his diary to give him a reason to go to Argyll the following day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the court prosecution pointed out, Mr Gilroy, who was the one person with intimate knowledge of Ms Pilley, had gone on a journey of "no importance" the day after she had disappeared instead of "assisting the police inquiry".

He returned home that night and spent the evening with his family, all the time Ms Pilley's body was in the boot of his car.

He had made a journey to Lochgilphead, to check on a school his firm was overseeing.

However, he did not take a direct route and instead headed much further north.

He was logged at Tyndrum at 13:22, then Inveraray at 15:51 before arriving at Lochgilphead at 16:26.

Gilroy's car suspension was found by investigators to be badly damaged and it had vegetation stuck underneath.

They were convinced he had driven off road.

Detectives were certain he had detoured along the A83 to somewhere near the beauty spot, Rest and Be Thankful, with enough time to dispose of Ms Pilley's body.

A targeted, intensive search was organised for a weekend in August. The terrain was tough and ultimately Ms Pilley's body was not found.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-17358340

Yes, some people think the McCann alerts needed to be confirmed with forensic evidence, but corroborating evidence isn't always forensic.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however  suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence  reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[Robittybob1]

Yes, some people think the McCann alerts needed to be confirmed with forensic evidence, but corroborating evidence isn't always forensic.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however  suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence  reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

"forensic
adjective
1.
relating to or denoting the application of scientific methods and techniques to the investigation of crime.
"forensic evidence"
2.
relating to courts of law.
noun
1.
scientific tests or techniques used in connection with the detection of crime."


From Wikipedia:
"Corroborating evidence (or corroboration) is evidence that supports a proposition already supported by initial evidence, therefore confirming the original proposition. For example, W, a witness, testifies that she saw X drive his automobile into a green car. Meanwhile, Y, another witness, testifies that when he examined X's car, later that day, he noticed green paint on its fender. There can also be corroborating evidence related to a certain source, such as what makes an author think a certain way due to the evidence that was supplied by witnesses or objects.[1]

That is interesting in that if corroborating evidence is required the dog alert must be "initial evidence"

[Mr Gray]

Yes, some people think the McCann alerts needed to be confirmed with forensic evidence, but corroborating evidence isn't always forensic.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however  suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence  reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Grime and Harrison say physical evidence... So what could that be

[Brietta]

Yes, some people think the McCann alerts needed to be confirmed with forensic evidence, but corroborating evidence isn't always forensic.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however  suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence  reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

There was no trace of Suzanne's body in either of the locations where the dog indicated interest ... under the stair well in the basement and in the boot of Gilroy's vehicle ... therefore there was no evidence to support the police theory that she had been killed in the basement and removed.

There was no single piece of evidence pointing to Gilroy's guilt.  Only when separate strands were considered as a whole was there enough compelling evidence which was accepted as proof of guilt by the jury.  It consisted of ...

• Evidence of a stalking type of behaviour on Gilroy's part as he strove to continue an extra marital relationship with Suzanne which was turbulent
• Evidence that Suzanne was in the process of breaking off that relationship and moving on from it
• Evidence that Suzanne had followed her usual travel route to work and had arrived yards from her workplace
• Evidence that Gilroy was at work without his vehicle
• Evidence that Gilroy left work to get his vehicle
• Evidence that he parked his vehicle in his parking bay in the basement
• Evidence he was acting abnormally.
  "That day, workmates said he was sweaty and clammy, as if in shock, and agitated and shaking, and rarely at his desk. He was seen hanging around a door to an internal staircase that led to the basement garage. He made an excuse of collecting papers, which were not immediately required, to go home and bring his car to the garage.
  https://www.scotsman.com/news/suzanne-pilley-murder-trial-killer-keeps-secret-of-lover-s-grave-1-2175207
• Evidence that he purchased air freshener and cleaning materials on his way back to work
• Evidence that he embarked on an unnecessary work related journey
• Evidence that his journey took longer than was necessary
• Evidence that his vehicle showed signs of having been driven off road and showed signs of subsequent damage
• Evidence of scratches on his hands which he tried to disguise with makeup which an expert testified were consistent with evidence produced in strangulation cases

I don't think I've forgotten anything ... but without all of that I doubt anything the cadaver dog indicated to in the basement would ever have seen the light of day in a courtroom and gives a clear indication of the weight of evidence required to convict.
The sceptics have in my opinion have always shown naivity when it comes to dog alerts and what constitutes evidence. 

Snip
A cadaver dog, trained to locate the scent of dead bodies, reacted in the basement garage at a bay where Gilroy’s car had been parked, at an adjoining bay, and at a door that led to the internal staircase. It also gave an alert at a recess behind the door, where a body could have been laid.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/suzanne-pilley-murder-trial-killer-keeps-secret-of-lover-s-grave-1-2175207

[Carana]

,,,Article 163
Value of forensic evidence
1 — the technical, scientific or artistic judgment inherent in the forensic evidence is assumed to be subtracted from the judge's free judgement.
2 — where the conviction of the judge differs from the judgment contained in the opinion of the experts, it shall substantiate the divergence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What's your interpretation of that clause, please, Carana?

Sorry, Misty, I missed your question.

TBH, I'm staring at it in the hope that a penny of meaning might drop from somewhere.

My best guess (and this might be totally wrong) is that a judge can't arbitrarily dismiss the value of the expert opinion in question: in the event of a disagreement, the judge needs to justify a different assessment.

[Robittybob1]

Grime and Harrison say physical evidence... So what could that be

Something more substantial than a hypothesis.

[ShiningInLuz]

Here's the section in the CÓDIGO DE PROCESSO PENAL Lei 48/2007, de 29 de Agosto re experts:

CAPÍTULO VI
Da prova pericial

Artigo 151.o


... etc. etc.

I do believe that is the catch of the day.  Many thanks Carana.   

[Mr Gray]

Robbie Coltrane's new series features the Suzanne Pilley case and say that the cadaver dog alerts were critical evidence.

"The dogs provide the evidence and gave support that Suzanne had been murdered." "They are a remarkable tool."  "Where the car boot was situated in the garage, the dog gave an alert at that spot." Now the investigation focused on David Gilroy. Detective Chief Inspector Gary Flannigan

from "Robbie Coltrane's Critical Evidence" Series 2 Episode 8 "Into Thin Air"

"The cadaver dog provided critical evidence."

You quote Robbie Coltrane and I will quote martin grime

[G-Unit]

Grime and Harrison say physical evidence... So what could that be

Grime didn't say that in my quote. Corroborating evidence is anything which supports a hypothesis.

[Mr Gray]

Grime didn't say that in my quote. Corroborating evidence is anything which supports a hypothesis.

You need to read all the quotes made by Grime and Harrison.... They both specifically refer to physical evidence..
Again it seems, there is something  you are unaware  of

After the conclusion of the searches, a meeting in the Portimao offices of the PJ took place in the cabinet of Goncalo AMARAL and those present included Guilermino ENCARNACO, an official representative from the Leicestershire police, Martin GRIME and myself. During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

then from grime..

Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm