Author Topic: Barry George revisited.  (Read 16651 times)

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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #300 on: April 15, 2019, 03:40:18 PM »
“Mrs Diskin says: "The trial should never have taken place. I sat there during the trial and listened to it and there is nothing to connect him with (the murder)."

She tells the programme that knowing her brother the way she does, he could not be guilty.

"Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm
."

Mrs Diskin also tells the programme that although George was "vulnerable", his "eccentricity" was looked upon fondly by many of the residents in Fulham, where he lived in Crookham Road just 500 metres from Miss Dando's home.

"Barry was the local character in the street for the people of Fulham. It may have been that Barry sometimes bugged them (but) he loved talking to people.

"He (sometimes) wouldn't understand that someone would be trying to get to work, but many people were quite comfortable to chat (to him) for long periods.

"(Barry) didn't have a job, so he liked to stop and chat to people, and go in and out of shops. People thought he was 'different', but different doesn't equal 'murderer'.

"Barry liked to be liked," she says.

Asked by the programme whether she agreed that George's behaviour - which included adopting new names for himself and wearing combat clothing - was harmless eccentricity, Mrs Diskin says it was "very, very childish" and made him vulnerable.

She says George should have been better protected by the health system.

"Barry lived alone but there was never anyone to check that he was OK. He should have been monitored," she says.

Asked about her brother's previous convictions, Mrs Diskin says she believes the exposure they have been given and the way they were portrayed had been taken out of context.

"Only these things (have received attention). The views of the people who liked (Barry) have been glossed over. It wasn't in the media's interest to put these things forward," she says.

"Yes, he's made mistakes, but not everyone has their whole life laid out to look at and judge.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-58143/Wrong-man-convicted-Dando-killing-says-sister.html
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 03:43:14 PM by Nicholas »
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #301 on: April 15, 2019, 04:38:44 PM »
“Foxtrot Foxtrot” – THE DANDO DISTRACTION blog by Andy Rigsby

“On remand and awaiting trial Knights insisted on speaking to the Jill Dando investigation team. He wasted their time by falsely claiming to know the source of the Dando murder weapon.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/foxtrot-foxtrot-the-dando-distraction/

A man accused in connection with a shooting spree in London earlier this year has asked to speak to police about the Jill Dando murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/417622.stm

During one remand hearing after his arrest Knights, who walks with a limp as a result of childhood polio, claimed to have information about the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/697378.stm

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I0YkDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT334&lpg=PT334&dq=george+knights+jill+dando&source=bl&ots=wry9hu0-5e&sig=ACfU3U0jWMHvD437BATlAtz7_zCNI82CXw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8veKbuNLhAhWLSBUIHZw3DaY4ChDoATAAegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=george%20knights%20jill%20dando&f=false
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 04:43:52 PM by Nicholas »
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #302 on: April 15, 2019, 05:19:25 PM »
“Mrs Diskin says: "The trial should never have taken place. I sat there during the trial and listened to it and there is nothing to connect him with (the murder)."

She tells the programme that knowing her brother the way she does, he could not be guilty.

"Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm
."

Mrs Diskin also tells the programme that although George was "vulnerable", his "eccentricity" was looked upon fondly by many of the residents in Fulham, where he lived in Crookham Road just 500 metres from Miss Dando's home.

"Barry was the local character in the street for the people of Fulham. It may have been that Barry sometimes bugged them (but) he loved talking to people.

"He (sometimes) wouldn't understand that someone would be trying to get to work, but many people were quite comfortable to chat (to him) for long periods.

"(Barry) didn't have a job, so he liked to stop and chat to people, and go in and out of shops. People thought he was 'different', but different doesn't equal 'murderer'.

"Barry liked to be liked," she says.

Asked by the programme whether she agreed that George's behaviour - which included adopting new names for himself and wearing combat clothing - was harmless eccentricity, Mrs Diskin says it was "very, very childish" and made him vulnerable.

She says George should have been better protected by the health system.

"Barry lived alone but there was never anyone to check that he was OK. He should have been monitored," she says.

Asked about her brother's previous convictions, Mrs Diskin says she believes the exposure they have been given and the way they were portrayed had been taken out of context.

"Only these things (have received attention). The views of the people who liked (Barry) have been glossed over. It wasn't in the media's interest to put these things forward," she says.

"Yes, he's made mistakes, but not everyone has their whole life laid out to look at and judge.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-58143/Wrong-man-convicted-Dando-killing-says-sister.html

”Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. “To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm”


In her book, Michelle DB writes about being interviewed by Martin Bashir for ITV. She claims that during the interview he posed a question to her about her fathers violence towards her and Barry. She stated she didn’t want the public to think she was refusing to answer a question so she made “a blithe remark about different times and different thoughts on disciplining children.”

It appears from what she writes that Mr Bashir went on to push her several times on the subject but that she refused to answer and became furious with him for daring to ask this question and eventually removed her mike clip and stormed out.

She states in her book she replied: ““I will not continue down this road with you. You will not put the blame for Jill’s death on my father. He has nothing to do with any of this.

I’ll come back to this, however I will say I get the distinct impresssion she is fully aware of the links between adverse childhood experiences and offending behaviour but doesn’t want to entertain a discussion on this, especially where her brother is concerned for obvious reasons, hence why she responded the way she did.


« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 05:47:51 PM by Nicholas »
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #303 on: April 15, 2019, 06:11:31 PM »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #304 on: April 15, 2019, 06:35:02 PM »
Circumstantial evidence in cases like this, when taken together, still hold weight, whether you like it or not.

Explain what you mean by “fatally flawed”

Its not a case of whether or not I like it.  Its a case of whether or not the jurors liked it at BG's 2008 re-trial and clearly they didn't hence he was found not guilty by a unanimous verdict.

Fatally flawed in that it was unable to withstand forensic scrutiny hence it was no longer available to the prosecution at the 2008 trial. 
Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #305 on: April 15, 2019, 06:49:19 PM »
You say the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG but what are YOU comparing it to?

An image of BG taken I assume at the time of his arrest.  No one has ever picked out BG on an identity parade.

I presume when you refer to the drop in centre you mean HAFAD, who btw DID alert the police! As did others; which if you had a genuine interest in this case and had done your research, you would know.

Yes I was referring to HAFAD and yes I know HAFAD staff alerted the police eventually but I don't believe it was in the immediate aftermath?  If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me. 
Setting the pussy among the pigeons!

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #306 on: April 15, 2019, 07:04:26 PM »
An image of BG taken I assume at the time of his arrest.  No one has ever picked out BG on an identity parade.

Yes I was referring to HAFAD and yes I know HAFAD staff alerted the police eventually but I don't believe it was in the immediate aftermath?  If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me.

Nearly a year after the murder then?

The answer you seek is in the bbc documentary.
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #307 on: April 15, 2019, 08:08:18 PM »
An image of BG taken I assume at the time of his arrest.  No one has ever picked out BG on an identity parade.

Yes I was referring to HAFAD and yes I know HAFAD staff alerted the police eventually but I don't believe it was in the immediate aftermath?  If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me.

It was.
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #308 on: April 15, 2019, 08:22:05 PM »
”Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. “To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm”


In her book, Michelle DB writes about being interviewed by Martin Bashir for ITV. She claims that during the interview he posed a question to her about her fathers violence towards her and Barry. She stated she didn’t want the public to think she was refusing to answer a question so she made “a blithe remark about different times and different thoughts on disciplining children.”

It appears from what she writes that Mr Bashir went on to push her several times on the subject but that she refused to answer and became furious with him for daring to ask this question and eventually removed her mike clip and stormed out.

She states in her book she replied: ““I will not continue down this road with you. You will not put the blame for Jill’s death on my father. He has nothing to do with any of this.

I’ll come back to this, however I will say I get the distinct impresssion she is fully aware of the links between adverse childhood experiences and offending behaviour but doesn’t want to entertain a discussion on this, especially where her brother is concerned for obvious reasons, hence why she responded the way she did.

I very much doubt Martin Bashir was attempting to blame Barry’s dad for Miss Dando’s death but her response is interesting and indeed imo telling none the less.

Rather than ignore the question about her father being violent towards her and Barry she claims to initially have responded by making excuses for his behaviour. That’s my interpretation of what she says she said. (I’ve not been able to find the recorded interview in order to verify what was actually said and indeed publicised).

However it’s interesting to note the following:

“A defence mechanism is an unconscious psychological mechanism that reduces anxiety arising from unacceptable or potentially harmful stimuli.

Defence mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which the mechanism is used. In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisimns are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema or other schemas
.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #309 on: April 15, 2019, 09:05:55 PM »
I very much doubt Martin Bashir was attempting to blame Barry’s dad for Miss Dando’s death but her response is interesting and indeed imo telling none the less.

Rather than ignore the question about her father being violent towards her and Barry she claims to initially have responded by making excuses for his behaviour. That’s my interpretation of what she says she said. (I’ve not been able to find the recorded interview in order to verify what was actually said and indeed publicised).

However it’s interesting to note the following:

“A defence mechanism is an unconscious psychological mechanism that reduces anxiety arising from unacceptable or potentially harmful stimuli.

Defence mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which the mechanism is used. In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisimns are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema or other schemas
.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms

I think the interview took place in 2001?

Michelle Diskin Bates appears to not only be able to remember the exact details of the interview and all that was going on around her but also the word for word conversations she was allegedly having in her head with her god at the time?

Am I persuaded by what she writes? Not in the slightest!

Her quite apparent avoidance of the question leaves me with questions like; what is she hiding? what does she fear?

Her book was her opportunity to set the record straight. If she didn’t want to talk about the violence her and Barry allegedly suffered at the hands of their father, as she found it too upsetting for example, why didn’t she say so?

Why choose to write what she did? I got a sense of one-upmanship.

She claims her brother Barry was “born with mental health issues.” Does she genuinely believe this and has she ever considered his mental health issues may have been born out of childhood trauma for example?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 09:41:43 PM by Nicholas »
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #310 on: April 15, 2019, 09:43:36 PM »

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
41m
Volunteers needed to improve Jill's Garden at Grove Park in Weston-super-Mare before the 20th anniversary of her death | Latest Weston-super-Mare and Somerset news - Weston Mercury

https://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/friends-of-grove-park-is-appealing-for-volunteers-to-improve-jill-dando-s-garden-1-5994043
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #311 on: April 16, 2019, 12:47:52 AM »
Was Mark Williams Thomas involvement in this case designed to manipulate?

That nice Mark Williams Thomas seems to be quietly descending into the bowels of Hell; I hear he was so shattered by the two pages about him in HHJ Taylor's ruling when she threw out the prosecution case against me that he booked into hospital; now he finds himself about to appear in front of a Judge regarding Malaysia and has become aware of other aspects of his past life that ITV is not pleased about and even his fan club at The Mirror are distancing themselves from him. I hate to warn him to expect calls wanting to interview him about his behaviour in 2000 and 2001. From very important people. Dear Mark may shortly be needing another haircut. Removing himself from Twitter is probably very wise; he might find it a good idea to remove himself from other aspects of life.
http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,65/func,view/catid,2/id,188017/
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #312 on: April 16, 2019, 02:13:30 PM »
Its not a case of whether or not I like it.  Its a case of whether or not the jurors liked it at BG's 2008 re-trial and clearly they didn't hence he was found not guilty by a unanimous verdict.

Fatally flawed in that it was unable to withstand forensic scrutiny hence it was no longer available to the prosecution at the 2008 trial.

Even though Barry George’s conviction was quashed and the jury came to a unanimous verdict following a re-trial, the single gun shot particle still has probative value [/i].

N Fenton et al: “We show that if one were to follow the arguments recorded in the Appeal judgement verbatim, then contrary to the Appeal conclusion, the probative value of the FDR evidence may not have been neutral as was concluded.

I reiterate what the High court judges said following George’s claim for compensation.

“High Court judges Lord Justice Beatson and Mr Justice Irwin said: "There was indeed a case upon which a reasonable jury properly directed could have convicted the claimant of murder." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

”Erroneous conclusions were reached about the value of the evidence in the Barry George case. The defence arguments have been nothing more that ”diversionary tactics.

N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf

N Fenton et al state:
The likelihood ratio (LR) is a probabilistic method that has been championed as a ‘simple rule’ for evaluating the probative value of forensic evidence in court. Intuitively, if the LR is greater than one then the evidence supports the prosecution hypothesis; if the LR is less than one it supports the defence hypothesis, and if the LR is equal to one then the evidence favours neither (and so is considered ‘neutral’—having no probative value). It can be shown by Bayes' theorem that this simple relationship only applies to pairs of hypotheses for which one is the negation of the other (i.e. to mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses) and is not applicable otherwise. We show how easy it can be – even for evidence experts – to use pairs of hypotheses that they assume are mutually exclusive and exhaustive but are not, and hence to arrive at erroneous conclusions about the value of evidence using the LR.

You are funny Holly.

That's for a jury to decide based on accurate info.   

It has nothing to do with whether I believe anyone is guilty or not guilty.  It's to do with whether experts are fit for purpose.

As per N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case

“Justice is best served when the evidence and hypotheses under consideration are accessible and clear to all parties and are unambiguously defined. In particular, this is the only way to assign correct meanings to the likelihoods provided by expert witnesses. Furthermore, because the probative value of a piece of evidence on source-level hypotheses may be very different from its probative value on offence-level hypotheses, the relationships between source-level and offence-level hypotheses must be made clear. We have demonstrated that an efficient way to achieve such clarity will require the construction of causal models through the aid of tools such as Bayesian networks. This approach helps to improve legal reasoning and by doing so demonstrates how hypotheses can be clarified, related and made precise enough for reliable quantification. Central to this approach is the distinction between hypotheses that are mutually exclusive and exhaustive and those that are not.
We contend that, in order to determine whether evidence has probative value – and therefore whether it should be excluded from proceedings or not – it should be evaluated against offence-level hypotheses. Any diversion from this key principle will carry the risk that evidence might be presented to the jury merely as a diversionary tactic, and persuade it to make decisions based on superfluous source- level hypotheses.
We have demonstrated serious concerns about the Barry George Appeal Court judgement
.

Read more here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 03:08:00 PM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #313 on: April 16, 2019, 03:06:32 PM »
Quote
We have demonstrated serious concerns about the Barry George Appeal Court judgement

Its abundantly clear the Supreme Court Judges saw through all the smoke and mirrors peddled by “Team Barry!” and through the personal agendas and egos of those publicly supporting this quite apparent farce!

« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 03:23:27 PM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #314 on: April 16, 2019, 03:25:34 PM »

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
4h
Good grief...people don’t have enough work to do! #getalife There are more important things to get agitated about than TV presenters
https://mobile.twitter.com/EveningStandard/status/1118094287059603456


Helga Speck
@HelgaSpeck
·
3h
Replying to
@EveningStandard
I love Sir David's programmes and he has done so much to make people aware of the planet.  Madeley really needs to look at himself, his own misdeeds instead of pointing the finger elsewhere.
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes