Author Topic: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?  (Read 1419 times)

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Online John

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2018, 10:42:20 AM »
Whether Kate choose to deliberately lie isn't known. Perhaps she just forgot that they moved the twins twice that night, just as she seems to have forgotten physically searching in her interview with Jane Hill on 25th May. The fact that her memory seems to let her down, however, makes her an unreliable witness in my opinion.

I put it down to dissociative amnesia brought about by trauma/stress and aggravated by alcohol.

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Offline G-Unit

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2018, 10:51:11 AM »
Where does the information about moving twice come from?

Emma Knight testified that the twins were taken to 4G and she left them there at 04.30. Dianne Webster testified that they arrived in 5H after that. Two moves.
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Offline jassi

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2018, 11:10:44 AM »
Emma Knight testified that the twins were taken to 4G and she left them there at 04.30. Dianne Webster testified that they arrived in 5H after that. Two moves.

I'm finding Dianne's statement confusing.
She mentions no times but says that Kate & Gerry arrived because the police were clearing the apartment, but according to Emma, the McCanns were moved to the new apartment when 5A was cleared.

Why should Fiona & Dave remove the children to their apartment from the new one?

If the MCanns didn't come up from the new apartment until some time after 4.30, yet lay down on these mattresses in the Payne apartment. at what time did they go out searching?

Dianne doesn't seem very sure about things, with her ' I think this and and I think that'
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online Vertigo Swirl

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2018, 11:25:45 AM »
Whether Kate choose to deliberately lie isn't known. Perhaps she just forgot that they moved the twins twice that night, just as she seems to have forgotten physically searching in her interview with Jane Hill on 25th May. The fact that her memory seems to let her down, however, makes her an unreliable witness in my opinion.
All witnesses are unreliable as they cannot be relied upon to have faultless memories.  The Smiths, Mrs Fenn, Amaral, the Tapas waiters, the nannys all of them we can find statements or words that seem contradictory or odd.  Kate didn't "forget" that she searched the night Madeleine went missing, she wasn't asked if she searched the night Madeleine went missing, she was asked if she felt she should be joining in with the organised searches in the days after Madeleine went missing.  This has been pointed out numerous times before. 

Offline Brietta

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2018, 03:59:08 PM »
Reply
 'I stayed in the apartment, erm I was aware later that the GNR were there as I say they were wandering round the front and the back and, and the time when I came out and met Robert MURAT, erm I'm assuming that was sort of after sort of midnight, there and that sort of time because the uniformed Police were there, erm the sort of troops in their boots, I don't, think they're GNR, erm and then you know, I, I was just in, in the apartment for, for the most part just with Kate, erm I eventually moved up back to my apartment when it was suggested by the PJ that you know, they had to get the twins out, so I went to that part to organise our flats and you know, the, the nannies in with the travel cots and the bedding, I helped them set that all up, so at that point I was separate to Kate and Gerry. Erm and then I was just in, in our apartment, I'd say for, I'd say half three, four o'clock when they brought the twins up, erm I sat on the sofa with Kate next to me and say we had the twins asleep on us, a good half an hour with Kate, just in complete shock, sobbing. Erm, then we put the twins to bed in the, in the cots, I say we made Kate and Gerry a mattress up on the floor and we chatted some more and by about half four, we'd all decided to just try and lay down, at least just to, to get a rest if not sleep. Erm, Dave and I went into our room with Scarlet and sort of left Kate and Gerry in the living room with the twins really. I think Dave and I must have actually eventually dozed off for a bit, cos we got woken up by Kate knocking on the door and just you know, as I said earlier, suggesting they, they couldn't sleep, they couldn't, they couldn't rest and they were just, it was driving them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on the twins'.
 
 01.06.31
 1485
 'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''
 
 
 Reply
 'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six, I say, I say, I think we'd, we'd, we'd just dozed off, so erm it was still very early.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm


There is no doubt that Fiona Payne enjoys a clear recollection of the events of that night.

Kate, Gerry and the twins stayed there for what was left of the night.  Kate knocked on her door early in the morning and asked her if she would watch the twins while she and Gerry went out to resume searching for Madeleine.

No anomaly or great mystery there in my opinion.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline jassi

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2018, 04:04:32 PM »
Reply
 'I stayed in the apartment, erm I was aware later that the GNR were there as I say they were wandering round the front and the back and, and the time when I came out and met Robert MURAT, erm I'm assuming that was sort of after sort of midnight, there and that sort of time because the uniformed Police were there, erm the sort of troops in their boots, I don't, think they're GNR, erm and then you know, I, I was just in, in the apartment for, for the most part just with Kate, erm I eventually moved up back to my apartment when it was suggested by the PJ that you know, they had to get the twins out, so I went to that part to organise our flats and you know, the, the nannies in with the travel cots and the bedding, I helped them set that all up, so at that point I was separate to Kate and Gerry. Erm and then I was just in, in our apartment, I'd say for, I'd say half three, four o'clock when they brought the twins up, erm I sat on the sofa with Kate next to me and say we had the twins asleep on us, a good half an hour with Kate, just in complete shock, sobbing. Erm, then we put the twins to bed in the, in the cots, I say we made Kate and Gerry a mattress up on the floor and we chatted some more and by about half four, we'd all decided to just try and lay down, at least just to, to get a rest if not sleep. Erm, Dave and I went into our room with Scarlet and sort of left Kate and Gerry in the living room with the twins really. I think Dave and I must have actually eventually dozed off for a bit, cos we got woken up by Kate knocking on the door and just you know, as I said earlier, suggesting they, they couldn't sleep, they couldn't, they couldn't rest and they were just, it was driving them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on the twins'.
 
 01.06.31
 1485
 'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''
 
 
 Reply
 'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six, I say, I say, I think we'd, we'd, we'd just dozed off, so erm it was still very early.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm


There is no doubt that Fiona Payne enjoys a clear recollection of the events of that night.

Kate, Gerry and the twins stayed there for what was left of the night.  Kate knocked on her door early in the morning and asked her if she would watch the twins while she and Gerry went out to resume searching for Madeleine.

No anomaly or great mystery there in my opinion.

Didn't Dianne normally sleep in the lounge? No mention of her, wonder where she slept, considering the extra mattresses had been pulled into the lounge for K&G?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online Robittybob1

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Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2018, 04:59:43 PM »
You can make things up if you wish, I prefer looking at the evidence. Why, for example, were they reluctant to mention going to the new apartment with the children? Was it because they carried them from block 5 to block 4, then back to block 5 and they continued to sleep, I wonder?

When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and Davidís apartment and we carried a
sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room......I lowered myself down on to the couch with Fiona. She took a twin from me and we both sat there hugging my children. [madeleine]

 I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment

The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Those two cots where did they come from?  Does anyone else confirm that the McCanns went near their new apartment on the night of the 3rd?
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Online Robittybob1

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Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2018, 05:09:38 PM »
Any particular reason you can think of why she might choose to deliberately lie about such a detail?
I felt Emma has remembered it wrong.  It is getting well passed her bedtime IMO.
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Online Robittybob1

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Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2018, 05:11:29 PM »
Whether Kate choose to deliberately lie isn't known. Perhaps she just forgot that they moved the twins twice that night, just as she seems to have forgotten physically searching in her interview with Jane Hill on 25th May. The fact that her memory seems to let her down, however, makes her an unreliable witness in my opinion.
IMO it is Emma who is mistaken.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Online Robittybob1

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Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2018, 05:13:03 PM »
Emma Knight testified that the twins were taken to 4G and she left them there at 04.30. Dianne Webster testified that they arrived in 5H after that. Two moves.
One move if Emma is mistaken.  For the cots are not moved as Emma says.
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Offline barrier

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2018, 05:14:37 PM »
IMO it is Emma who is mistaken.

Is it beyond KM to be mistaken,she after all is the one likely  to be traumatised by an alleged abduction.
Ah,but I may as well try and catch the wind.

Online Robittybob1

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Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2018, 05:26:45 PM »
Is it beyond KM to be mistaken,she after all is the one likely  to be traumatised by an alleged abduction.
All the more reason to remember it correctly.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline jassi

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2018, 05:48:21 PM »
One move if Emma is mistaken.  For the cots are not moved as Emma says.

Why should she be wrong? She wasn't emotionally involved like the Tapas group and is therefore more likely to have a more reliable recollection - IMO
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online Robittybob1

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Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2018, 05:52:00 PM »
Why should she be wrong? She wasn't emotionally involved like the Tapas group and is therefore more likely to have a more reliable recollection - IMO
Just tired and recalling it wrongly one year later.  False memory of the actual situation.  IMO She must have organised new cots for the new apartment, and later saw the twins in Payne's room and remembers it is seeing them in the new apartment.  It is possible to have a mix up without the need for trauma.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 06:11:38 PM by Robittybob1 »
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline barrier

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2018, 09:21:35 PM »
All the more reason to remember it correctly.

Why?  no one had reason to recall in detail anything.
Ah,but I may as well try and catch the wind.