Author Topic: It has never been explained why Julian Totman was walking the wrong way?  (Read 43460 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

A starting point is here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9601.msg465411#msg465411
As I recall Jane Tanner was willing to do an E-fit of the man she saw but she only saw a side on view and for an E-fit you needed a face on view of the person being drawn. Later an artist drew what she saw but by then the the memory of the child's pyjamas appears to have been affected by false memory syndrome.  But despite that the description of the man remained the same. 
But then some one seemed to combine Gail Cooper's sketch with Jane's but was that Jane or someone else who drew that.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/screenshots/drawingJaneTanner.jpg



The image on the left is the one done by Gail Cooper but who drew the one on the right?

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Offline G-Unit

I am still trying to work out why Dr Totman thought that telling the GNR anything in any way assisted the enquiry.  The GNR didn't have any investigative authority in the McCann case, they only provided traffic and crowd control, a few search boats and a helicopter with the occasional tracker dog or two thrown in.   Telling the GNR in no way guaranteed that the information was passed up the line to the PJ detectives, moreover, the absence of any statement in the files evidences the fact that the PJ never received this information imo.

That all said however, how hard would it have been to have talked to guests who were registered at both crèches and ascertain if they were out with their toddlers at around 9.15pm and just happened to walk past block 5?

The Totmans were booked in for 2 weeks, so plenty of time to approach the authorities again if they were ignored.
At home they could have contacted Crimestoppers, LP or their local police. In October 2007 the Tannerman sketch was released but again they don't seem to have responded.

From the PJ's perspective they did ignore the night creche, but I assume they thought anyone who saw anything interesting would come forward. The job of contacting those who didn't come forward was carried out by LP in the UK.
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Offline slartibartfast

“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline slartibartfast

I think it is fair enough to say some information was given to the PJ even if it wasn't given to them directly but with the hope it will be passed on to them.

Why?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline misty

IMO it is important to establish when the Tanner sighting was revealed to holidaymakers in Luz after Madeleine's disappearance. The GNR were conducting searches in various OC blocks on 4th May, accompanied by translator(s). At that stage I do not believe the Totman family would have been told about Tannerman, let alone given a description of the clothing he/the child was wearing within the first 24hrs.
Formal statements were taken from MW tourists in the following days & the Totman family were booked in at OC until 12/5. There is no reason to think that they wouldn't have subsequently been made aware of more details of the sighting before returning home, given their proximity to Block 5.
It would be very interesting if they were in the number of unnamed holidaymakers who phoned the hotline to say they, too, had seen Murat near OC on 3/5 evening

Offline Robittybob1


What are u talking [posting] about - its times like this i feel as if i'm in a nut house
The disputed text:
"14.01 – Having been left by their parents, exposed to situations of risk and danger that they, in their young age, wouldn’t be able to protect themselves from, and to confront and to resolve on their own, is considered to be a serious risk and serious and neglectful behaviour from the parents.

14.19 – Second Contradiction: The Sightings

14.29 – The second relevant contradiction is given by Jane Tanner’s deposition, who states she saw the abductor. One cannot understand how Jane Tanner passes Gerald and Jeremiah, and sees a man carrying a child, with both of them failing to see her and the abductor.

14.48 – The only possible explanation for them not seeing her is given by her husband’s deposition, who says that she saw the abductor when she was returning from the apartment, and not when she was going there. It was possible for her to see Jeremiah and Gerald without any of them seeing her, but only if she was coming from the back of the apartment, using the sliding window. In any case, the detailed identification that she gives of a possible abductor is impossible. See with your own eyes.

15.17 – Jane Tanner asserts that she clearly saw, at this distance and with this lack of light, five aspects:

First: she saw a dark-haired man, aged 35 to 40, slender, with dark hair falling down his neck.

Second: that man wore linen trousers colored between beige and golden.

Third: he wore a duffy jacket, but not as thick.

Fourth: he wore black classical shoes.

Fifth: the man walked in a hurry, with a child laying on his outstretched arms, a position that is more likely for a statue than for a person who walks carrying a child.

15.52 – Jane’s statements were the basis for the abduction theory. But for us, and later on, for the English police, they had doubtful value. How was it possible to see so much as such a distance, and under that light? How was it possible for Gerald and Jeremiah not to see Jane, or the abductor?

16.10 - This sighting has another problem: Jane saw the alleged abductor crossing Agostinho da Silva Street, and less than 30 minutes later, the Smith family also sees a man carrying a child, on Escola Primária Street, on the other side of the village, and walking into the opposite direction of the man that Jane had seen."

NOW FOR MY REPLY:
Looking at each bit would drive the thread in the wrong direction.

But specifically "14.29 – The second relevant contradiction is given by Jane Tanner’s deposition, who states she saw the abductor. One cannot understand how Jane Tanner passes Gerald and Jeremiah, and sees a man carrying a child, with both of them failing to see her and the abductor." 
We have shown how this is possible in a previous thread.

"14.48 – The only possible explanation for them not seeing her is given by her husband’s deposition, who says that she saw the abductor when she was returning from the apartment, and not when she was going there. It was possible for her to see Jeremiah and Gerald without any of them seeing her, but only if she was coming from the back of the apartment, using the sliding window. In any case, the detailed identification that she gives of a possible abductor is impossible. See with your own eyes." 

You might like to explain how you would get Jane to see a man walking from the left to the right in that situation?

Thirdly "15.17 – Jane Tanner asserts that she clearly saw, at this distance and with this lack of light, five aspects:"

What was the distance specified?

Fourthly : "16.10 - This sighting has another problem: Jane saw the alleged abductor crossing Agostinho da Silva Street, and less than 30 minutes later, the Smith family also sees a man carrying a child, on Escola Primária Street, on the other side of the village, and walking into the opposite direction of the man that Jane had seen."

Wrong street.  And why connect the two sightings?

« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 01:02:35 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

I just said it was 5 years old.
You also described my cite as “fairly weak”which led me to conclude you had rejected it on the grounds that it did not support my contention that JT has been accused of deception for years and years (though why a five year old quote is not permissable in support of that particular contention you never made clear). Anyway, I trust you are now satisfactorily convinced that for many years JT has been accused by some of lying about her sighting of a man with a child.  If not don’t hesitate to say so and I will fetch more cites to make my point more strongly.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline G-Unit

I think it is fair enough to say some information was given to the PJ even if it wasn't given to them directly but with the hope it will be passed on to them.

You can say people thought it had been given to them, or that people believed it was given to them, or that it should have been given to them, but you can't say it was given to them unless it was.
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Offline Brietta

The Totmans were booked in for 2 weeks, so plenty of time to approach the authorities again if they were ignored.
At home they could have contacted Crimestoppers, LP or their local police. In October 2007 the Tannerman sketch was released but again they don't seem to have responded.

From the PJ's perspective they did ignore the night creche, but I assume they thought anyone who saw anything interesting would come forward. The job of contacting those who didn't come forward was carried out by LP in the UK.

Bridget O'Donnell - resident in apartment block 4 was interviewed by the police, accompanied by translator Robert Murat.

Snip
Later, there was a knock on our apartment door and we let the two men in. One was a uniformed Portuguese policeman, the other his translator.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook.
 https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Totmans were also resident in block 4.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Bridget O'Donnell - resident in apartment block 4 was interviewed by the police, accompanied by translator Robert Murat.

Snip
Later, there was a knock on our apartment door and we let the two men in. One was a uniformed Portuguese policeman, the other his translator.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook.
 https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Totmans were also resident in block 4.

Yes, the Wilkins were in 4O and the Totmans were in 4M. Jez Wilkins managed to find the PJ and speak to them on 4th May;

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Yes, the Wilkins were in 4O and the Totmans were in 4M. Jez Wilkins managed to find the PJ and speak to them on 4th May;

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
From her account it sounds more like the police found them rather than they went looking for the police.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline slartibartfast

From her account it sounds more like the police found them rather than they went looking for the police.

You would assume the GNR were asking people if they had seen Madeleine.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

You would assume the GNR were asking people if they had seen Madeleine.

“Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook. Then he pointed to the photocopied picture of Madeleine on the table. "Is this your daughter?" he asked. "Er, no," we said. "That's the girl you are meant to be searching for." My heart sank for the McCanns.”
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Erngath

“Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook. Then he pointed to the photocopied picture of Madeleine on the table. "Is this your daughter?" he asked. "Er, no," we said. "That's the girl you are meant to be searching for." My heart sank for the McCanns.”

Exactly the feeling I have when reading that.
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline G-Unit

“Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook. Then he pointed to the photocopied picture of Madeleine on the table. "Is this your daughter?" he asked. "Er, no," we said. "That's the girl you are meant to be searching for." My heart sank for the McCanns.”

Had you read the link I provided instead of O'Donnell's sugary article you would have discovered that Jwz Wilkins approached the PJ on 4th to tell them about his 'Rasta man'.

I would be interested to know if the Tanner sighting was known about in May 2007. It wasn't reported by the media as far as I can discover until late 2007.
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