Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible

[Myster]

Absolutely spot on... and I'm in total agreement with you. The very faint mirror image on page 566 only appeared after the bible was closed, when the original dark stain on 567 had partially dried... and what's more it didn't come from the carpet but was deliberately planted from the victim's bloodied palm.

I'd also go along with Caroline's theory that Bamber originally placed the bible, opened and face upwards on or by Sheila's lap, with her bloodied palm resting on page 567 and her blood-stained fingers on the nightie.  For some reason he had a change of mind... maybe it looked too contrived with the rifle added, or the book wouldn't stay in position, so he modified his plan and planted it face downwards resting on the carpet blood pool near her upper arm, hoping no-one would notice that there would be a difference in the stain's appearance, page position and origin. Her fingers were then given a cursory wipe over to remove any blood, again for some unknown reason.

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes, it is blood.

How do you know it is definitely blood?  I can see now the spots of blood look similarly dark on the carpet unlike the bright red trails on SC's arms.

I guess the reason I am questioning this is that there's no mention of a large stain relevant to the spots anywhere?  From the CoA:

57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.

If a different stain pattern existed then surely a sample would be removed and tested?

[Holly Goodhead]

   Yes, I also have difficulty typing when I'm half-cut too!

I was on my phone and my keys got stuck!  I meant to say 'if that's what it is'.

[Holly Goodhead]

As a remembrance of a dearly-loved member of the family who they tragically lost.

But they acquired the tenancy to WHF with all its contents and June's personal effects which were surely a more fitting memory than a tatty blood stained bible found at the centre of the tragedy?

It just stirkes me as a little odd in that the bible was the only exhibit that didn't undergo blood grouping tests (as far as we know) and the only exhibit (as far as we know) that was returned to the relatives?

If the bible still exists it should be possible to carry out DNA tests on the blood stain to determine whose blood.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/exhibits/#after

General Guidance: After Production In Court

Once an exhibit is produced in court, or treated as being produced in accordance with section 5B(5) Magistrates Courts Act 1980 (Archbold 10-16), the court has a responsibility to preserve or retain it. Normally the court entrusts the exhibits to the prosecution, usually the police.

The court can impose restrictions on the prosecution. Where it imposes no restrictions, it is for the prosecution to deal with the exhibits in whatever way appears best for the purposes of justice. If the prosecution has doubts as to how to deal with an exhibit it may, but is not obliged to, apply to the court for directions (R v Stipendiary Magistrates at Lambeth and Another, ex p McComb 1983) All ER 321).

From the CoA:

165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.

[Holly Goodhead]

I can't see anything relevant in the photos?!

The ball of thumb/horseshoe image on the page of the bible and carpet look similar? 

[Caroline]

I can't see anything relevant in the photos?!

The ball of thumb/horseshoe image on the page of the bible and carpet look similar?

If you can't see it, you can't see it but if the 'horseshoe' stain was responsible for the bible stain, it would facing a different direction. It's still also on the wrong page.

[Angelo222]

It was June's Bible and she was the religious one.  There isn't any way of knowing for sure how it came to be lying on the floor alongside Sheila but it is a fair bet to think that it was ejected from the bed and flung across the bed onto the floor when June got up.

[Opal]

Am I the only one who can see another horseshoe shape under SC's arm where the blood is dark?     This is clearly seen by enlarging the photo that I was speaking about yesterday....I gave the web address from off Google images yesterday, but when the website is opened, you need to scroll down to view it. The horseshoe shape is right at the bottom of the photo and can only be seen clearly when the photo is enlarged.

[Myster]

I was on my phone and my keys got stuck!  I meant to say 'if that's what it is'.

I had a chuckle at that unusual error because you're normally so precise with language in your posts.

[Myster]

Am I the only one who can see another horseshoe shape under SC's arm where the blood is dark?     This is clearly seen by enlarging the photo that I was speaking about yesterday....I gave the web address from off Google images yesterday, but when the website is opened, you need to scroll down to view it. The horseshoe shape is right at the bottom of the photo and can only be seen clearly when the photo is enlarged.

If this is the photo you mean, which horseshoe shape because I see a couple around the armpit but doubt if any caused the bible stain?

[John]

Strangely, in the picture below, the bloody horseshoe mark just to the top of the Bible is not that visible so was the book moved slightly?

Also, note the very clear shadow of the rifle on the nightdress in Myster's pic above yet no shadow in mine below.

[Opal]

That's the picture! Thanks John & Myster ... .the clearer photo without the flash highlighting on the blood by SC's arm/nightdress shows the horseshoe shape.. if book upside down.....perhaps not!

[scipio_usmc]

How do you know it is definitely blood?  I can see now the spots of blood look similarly dark on the carpet unlike the bright red trails on SC's arms.

I guess the reason I am questioning this is that there's no mention of a large stain relevant to the spots anywhere?  From the CoA:

57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.

If a different stain pattern existed then surely a sample would be removed and tested?

I already explained to you that they only took 2 carpet samples from the bedroom. They tested 5 drops from each sample. The COA gave a false impression of 5 pieces of carpet being taken. There was pooling of blood near both victims in the bedroom. Police assumed such blood belonged to the victim the pool of blood was near.  The trail of blood from someone walking was what interested them. Thus they took a piece of carpet near the foot of the bed and right around the corner near the socks. These 2 carpet squares they cut out had more than 5 stains on each but they only tested 5 on each. They only tested the AK enzyme. The ones that they got successful results on were AK2-1. Of the 3 victims out of bed only June has AK2-1. So did the socks that blood dripped on when standing over them. So what this demonstrated was that June walked around the bed and then back towards the door.

The police wondered whether he killer (suspected as being Sheila) had been the one who walked, crawled or was dragged to the other side of the bed while bleeding. Had that been the case that would prove she had been shot the first time somewhere other than Nevill's side of the bed and then walked, crawled or was dragged to the other side before being shot again. But it wound up proving June had been the one who moved after being shot not Sheila. So it wound up being rather useless. That June walked to the other side of the bed and back doesn't reveal anything significant.

Did she do such to try to confront the killer or was the killer already out of the room and she went to see Nevill or was she just in a daze and walking aimlessly before turning around and moving towards the door? We can speculate but it doesn't help isolate which of the various possibilities actually happened.



 

 

There wasn't 5 carpets samples

[scipio_usmc]

I'd also go along with Caroline's theory that Bamber originally placed the bible, opened and face upwards on or by Sheila's lap, with her bloodied palm resting on page 567 and her blood-stained fingers on the nightie.  For some reason he had a change of mind... maybe it looked too contrived with the rifle added, or the book wouldn't stay in position, so he modified his plan and planted it face downwards resting on the carpet blood pool near her upper arm, hoping no-one would notice that there would be a difference in the stain's appearance, page position and origin. Her fingers were then given a cursory wipe over to remove any blood, again for some unknown reason.

The marks on the nighty are not finger marks they are from the bottom palm/wrist. The mark in the bible is not a palm print the distinctive arks present on a hand are not readily observable.  People are straining to say they see the attributes of a hand though the quality of the photo is far to poor to enable such.

The people who looked close up at the blood stains saw nothing to suggest it was a palm print.

The leap that this shows Jeremy planted the Bible on her then moved it after is in many ways similar to how little Jeremy supporters will have to go on and yet to say evidence supports them. Blowing up a Bible photo in hopes of seeing palm lines is not much better than blowing them up to hope to see scratched in the mantle.

I'm going to respect the people who looked close up at Sheila's hands and Sheila's the Bible stain. They say the blood was on the outside of her palm and back of her fingers.  They said the stain on her gown was from her wrist/outer palm. They fingerprinted the Bible but saw no signs of any prints in blood. I am going to stick with that over saying they were wrong based on the blowing up of the Bible blood stain and blood stain on the own both of which still fail to provide enough detail to (sorry for my sport metaphor but I have been watching some classic legendary football games today) overturn the ruling on the field.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Looking at the image in post #85 would SC's head have fallen to the side of the cabinet?  Surely she would have fallen straight back?  The pathologist didn't note any bruising to her head which might have been expected if her head hit the side/corner or front of the cabinet?

It's a pity we don't have a photo showing that whole area of the room.  It strikes me as convenient that SC wasn't blocking the entrance to the box room which PCs Collins and Delgado entered prior to any officer entering any of the other upstairs rooms.  Instead she is parallel with the edge of the bed.

Anyway back to the bloody bible given we don't even know whose blood was on it I don't really see how anything can be advanced?  Plus:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454

The big question for me is why wasn't the bible blood tested?