Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible  (Read 56559 times)

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Offline Caroline

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2016, 11:39:11 AM »
Looking at the image in post #85 would SC's head have fallen to the side of the cabinet?  Surely she would have fallen straight back?  The pathologist didn't note any bruising to her head which might have been expected if her head hit the side/corner or front of the cabinet?

It's a pity we don't have a photo showing that whole area of the room.  It strikes me as convenient that SC wasn't blocking the entrance to the box room which PCs Collins and Delgado entered prior to any officer entering any of the other upstairs rooms.  Instead she is parallel with the edge of the bed.

Anyway back to the bloody bible given we don't even know whose blood was on it I don't really see how anything can be advanced?  Plus:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454

The big question for me is why wasn't the bible blood tested?

We don't know that it wasn't.

Offline Opal

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2016, 11:54:13 AM »
I'm wondering if SC was on her side at some point? Most of the blood from her mouth has fallen onto only one side of her nightie, the lines of blood are on her Left side looking at photo. She even had blood in her left ear.

Offline Caroline

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2016, 12:24:19 PM »
I'm wondering if SC was on her side at some point? Most of the blood from her mouth has fallen onto only one side of her nightie, the lines of blood are on her Left side looking at photo. She even had blood in her left ear.

I would say 'someone' lifted her head from under her neck which tilted her head back and blood flowed from her mouth. I have my own ideas of what went on but have learned to keep some things to myself.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2016, 02:11:50 PM »
We don't know that it wasn't.

Yes that's true which begs the question why the defence didn't check this out assuming they were aware it contained blood?

On 19th Sept '86 Dr Lincoln sent JB's solicitor, Paul Terzeon, a letter outlining his visit to the FSS where he checked the following exhibits containing blood:

- Sound moderator
- Rifle
- Pieces of carpet
- Socks
- Watch
- Tufts of fibre
- Jacket
- Bathrobe
- Citroen Car
- Wallpaper
- Nightdress

No mention of the bible?

If the blood staining in the bible supported the prosecution case then why not use it?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939


Paul Terzeon claims he was unaware of the open pages of the bible:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859

The bible was fingerprinted.  Reference to it was made at trial by DC Hammersely in the crime scene photos but I don't know whether it was physically produced as an exhibit?

The prosecution confirm with DC Hammersley he seized the bible (exhibit DRH/44) on 9th Aug.  The prosecution then move swiftly to the blood stained wallpaper.  Why no mention of the blood staining in the bible?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221

Is there any firm evidence the bible was returned to the relatives?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2016, 02:43:20 PM »
John Hayward makes reference to testing numerous exhbits but no mention whatsoever of the bible:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.msg4425#msg4425

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2016, 02:46:31 PM »
I would say 'someone' lifted her head from under her neck which tilted her head back and blood flowed from her mouth. I have my own ideas of what went on but have learned to keep some things to myself.

Oh come on Caro pray tell...
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2016, 02:52:00 PM »
Yes that's true which begs the question why the defence didn't check this out assuming they were aware it contained blood?

On 19th Sept '86 Dr Lincoln sent JB's solicitor, Paul Terzeon, a letter outlining his visit to the FSS where he checked the following exhibits containing blood:

- Sound moderator
- Rifle
- Pieces of carpet
- Socks
- Watch
- Tufts of fibre
- Jacket
- Bathrobe
- Citroen Car
- Wallpaper
- Nightdress

No mention of the bible?

If the blood staining in the bible supported the prosecution case then why not use it?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939


Paul Terzeon claims he was unaware of the open pages of the bible:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859

The bible was fingerprinted.  Reference to it was made at trial by DC Hammersely in the crime scene photos but I don't know whether it was physically produced as an exhibit?

The prosecution confirm with DC Hammersley he seized the bible (exhibit DRH/44) on 9th Aug.  The prosecution then move swiftly to the blood stained wallpaper.  Why no mention of the blood staining in the bible?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221

Is there any firm evidence the bible was returned to the relatives?

I'm not sure how the bible could strengthen the prosecutions case? If it is Sheila's hand print or a stain from the carpet; it proves nothing other than she touched the bible, someone staged it or it picked up blood from the floor (although I believe this is highly unlikely). One thing it would bring into question (if it is a palm print), is the notion that Sheila's hands were clean and implications for the hand swabs, although if staged, as Myster pointed out, 'someone' could have wiped them. This may be why little GSR was found on her hands.

Personally, I think it was staged on her lap but moved because it looked too staged and replaced by the rifle.

I have seen several references in respect to the bible being returned to the relatives - the latest is in CAL's book. It was (according to CAL) returned in 2006 - page 408.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2016, 02:56:40 PM »
I'm wondering if SC was on her side at some point? Most of the blood from her mouth has fallen onto only one side of her nightie, the lines of blood are on her Left side looking at photo. She even had blood in her left ear.

According to the pathologist SC was slightly on her right side and partially sitting up.  See point 5:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672

But this seems to be based on the blood staining to her nightie and arm and I guess assumes she was  not moved at SoC prior to being removed from WHF.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2016, 03:05:12 PM »
I'm not sure how the bible could strengthen the prosecutions case? If it is Sheila's hand print or a stain from the carpet; it proves nothing other than she touched the bible, someone staged it or it picked up blood from the floor (although I believe this is highly unlikely). One thing it would bring into question (if it is a palm print), is the notion that Sheila's hands were clean and implications for the hand swabs, although if staged, as Myster pointed out, 'someone' could have wiped them. This may be why little GSR was found on her hands.

Personally, I think it was staged on her lap but moved because it looked too staged and replaced by the rifle.

I have seen several references in respect to the bible being returned to the relatives - the latest is in CAL's book. It was (according to CAL) returned in 2006 - page 408.

From the CoA:

416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2016, 03:48:21 PM »
I'm not sure how the bible could strengthen the prosecutions case? If it is Sheila's hand print or a stain from the carpet; it proves nothing other than she touched the bible, someone staged it or it picked up blood from the floor (although I believe this is highly unlikely). One thing it would bring into question (if it is a palm print), is the notion that Sheila's hands were clean and implications for the hand swabs, although if staged, as Myster pointed out, 'someone' could have wiped them. This may be why little GSR was found on her hands.

Personally, I think it was staged on her lap but moved because it looked too staged and replaced by the rifle.

I have seen several references in respect to the bible being returned to the relatives - the latest is in CAL's book. It was (according to CAL) returned in 2006 - page 408.

Thanks.  I've just read page 408 of my copy.  CAL's book is good in terms of reiterating what happened by way of WS's and interviews etc and putting it all into a narrative but imo she's absolutely hopeless at any sort of independent thought/research to raise questions, anomalies etc. 

I've pointed out the legal position on trial exhibits here along with the CoA's position on the destruction of exhibits in 1996 pertaining to JB's case.  Why would the bible be singled out and saved from destruction in 1996 when it appears all other exhibits were destroyed, other than the rifle and silencer, and then be returned to the relatives in 2006? 

 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=977.msg328411#msg328411

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2016, 04:05:18 PM »
From the CoA:

416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.

That comment is in respect to the Jeremy and the defence seemingly knowing that the open pages had some significance and had a fuss been made of it at trial, it would beg the question of how he knew there was significance. The blood on the bible has less significance because it doesn't point to guilt or innocence unless ..........

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2016, 04:29:11 PM »
That comment is in respect to the Jeremy and the defence seemingly knowing that the open pages had some significance and had a fuss been made of it at trial, it would beg the question of how he knew there was significance. The blood on the bible has less significance because it doesn't point to guilt or innocence unless ..........

According to Paul Terzeon he enquired about the open pages and was told they were unknown:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859

DI Miller apparently sent DC Barlow to seek opinion from a local rector of any potential significance in the open pages:

410. In addition complaint is made that a visit to discuss the relevant pages with the local Rector was not disclosed to the defence. This allegation stems from documents which came to light during the subsequent inquiries. These documents record that on a day ,which seems to be early in the inquiry into the shootings, DC Barlow was instructed by DI Miller to see the Rector to see if there was any significance in the open pages. Since at that stage the case was thought to be one in which Sheila Caffell had committed suicide, such an inquiry seems a natural one to have made. The only record of the outcome of that instruction appears in a note made by DC Barlow at a much later date which reads:

"I did see the Rector but he couldn't help us in any way on (the) point…"

411. Mr Barlow has since that time been forced to retire from the police force following a severe stroke. He does not now think that he did see the Rector. However, so far as we can tell, his record quoted above was not drawn to his attention and we conclude that he did see the Rector. We are not, however, surprised that a fruitless inquiry made almost 17 years ago does not stick in his memory following his enforced retirement from the police.


It seems a photo of the bible was placed before the jury but which photo?  It seems this was an overall SoC photo.

406. Photographs of the scene, which were before the jury at trial, clearly showed the Bible lying open but face down beside Sheila Caffell's body. Since the Bible was face down, it is not possible to ascertain from these photographs the pages at which the Bible lay open.

It appears photos of the blood staining were taken at some other location:

407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.

Pray tell Caro...  Please don't leave us all breathless with anticipation...!!!!!!!!!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2016, 04:30:59 PM »
According to Paul Terzeon he enquired about the open pages and was told they were unknown:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859

DI Miller apparently sent DC Barlow to seek opinion from a local rector of any potential significance in the open pages:

410. In addition complaint is made that a visit to discuss the relevant pages with the local Rector was not disclosed to the defence. This allegation stems from documents which came to light during the subsequent inquiries. These documents record that on a day ,which seems to be early in the inquiry into the shootings, DC Barlow was instructed by DI Miller to see the Rector to see if there was any significance in the open pages. Since at that stage the case was thought to be one in which Sheila Caffell had committed suicide, such an inquiry seems a natural one to have made. The only record of the outcome of that instruction appears in a note made by DC Barlow at a much later date which reads:

"I did see the Rector but he couldn't help us in any way on (the) point…"

411. Mr Barlow has since that time been forced to retire from the police force following a severe stroke. He does not now think that he did see the Rector. However, so far as we can tell, his record quoted above was not drawn to his attention and we conclude that he did see the Rector. We are not, however, surprised that a fruitless inquiry made almost 17 years ago does not stick in his memory following his enforced retirement from the police.


It seems a photo of the bible was placed before the jury but which photo?  It seems this was an overall SoC photo.

406. Photographs of the scene, which were before the jury at trial, clearly showed the Bible lying open but face down beside Sheila Caffell's body. Since the Bible was face down, it is not possible to ascertain from these photographs the pages at which the Bible lay open.

It appears photos of the blood staining were taken at some other location:

407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.

Pray tell Caro...  Please don't leave us all breathless with anticipation...!!!!!!!!!

They didn't peruse it and didn't request to look at the bible at trial. If they were that bothered, they would have made an issue of it - and didn't.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2016, 04:35:12 PM »
They didn't peruse it and didn't request to look at the bible at trial. If they were that bothered, they would have made an issue of it - and didn't.

If Paul Terzeon is correct and he was told the pages were an unknown and the bible was missing then surely the thing to do was to take it up with the chief investigating officer and get something in writing for the file to cover one's botty!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible
« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2016, 04:36:44 PM »
According to the pathologist SC was slightly on her right side and partially sitting up.  See point 5:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672

But this seems to be based on the blood staining to her nightie and arm and I guess assumes she was  not moved at SoC prior to being removed from WHF.

This is a perfect example of not only how lazy Vanezis was but also thoughtless. He never tried to plug in all the evidence together in making his assessment of whether she committed suicide. He left ti to other experts to deal with most of the evidence other than the physical injuries.

You keep referring to post conviction assessments (brought out during the 2002 appeal.  What those assessments assert is that Sheila was shot while seated propped up against something, her neck was bent to her right side (the wounds were also to the right) and the blood flowed down her right shoulder/breast area. Shortly after dying she was dragged flat and then the blood flow changed. It ran down the side of her arm and down the side of her neck pooling next to her and the Bible was finally placed in such pool of blood. 

Vanezis said she was seated during the first shot and remained so after thus resulting in the blood going down her right side.  Moreover he recognized she put her palm/wrist to her wound resulting in blood leaking down her forearm.  Where Vanezis differed from the argument made at the appeal is that he claimed she fell flat immediately after the second shot from the force of the shot while the post conviction experts said she was dragged flat.   

Vanezis screwed up. He failed to recognize that Sheila would have to be propped against something in order to remain partially seated after the first shot.  he simply pretended that she was sitting in the middle of the floor and either shot herself or was shot then in the same location shot herself again or was shot again then because she died she fell flat and the blood flow changed.

Because he failed to recognize she was propped against something he failed to recognize she was dragged flat subsequently. The blood lab experts failed to consider the issue either.

If their failure had been due to a lack of scientific knowledge about these issues and new science available in 2002 led to the government experts recognizing this then it would have been able to be used in the appeal. But it wasn't new science it was simply negligence on the part of Vanezis and the  others that they failed to recognize the significance of this. The know-how existed in 1985 they simply didn't failed to properly consider it.

They also failed to properly consider that the Bible being placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death proves someone else had to be there to place it in such pool of blood. This was the second new argument made on appeal. It too was rejected for the same reason- the experts had enough know-how to realize this if they properly evaluated the scene. That they failed to do so until after the conviction is their tough luck.

Let's contrast this with DNA. They didn't know about DNA at the tie so reasonably didn't have the ability to do NA testing. If DNA testing were to prove Bamber the killer such could be used on appeal to argue against his release but the only things the jury did not consider that the government can use are things the government reasonably could not have known about at the time of trial.

The blood flow issues are pretty basic either they dropped the ball or they intentionally chose not to use such argument because they felt they didn't need to or felt it would muddy up the works.  There are no documents that suggest the prosecution experts realized this issue so most likely it is the former but either way it can't be used. 

The same exact rules apply to the defense. Things they could and should have known about they can't use on appeal. Only things they reasonably could not have known about can be used.  Many times on TV you see lawyers playing games and objections being made and sustained. On these shows it is to try to poison the jury with ideas that they can't really make. While that exists to a limited extent in real life the main reason lawyers object is to preserve an issue for appeal. You can only appeal on arguments you make and lose in court. So many maneuverings are to get things in the record. If you fail to make an argument and get it in the record you can't make it on appeal except where you reasonably had no ability to know about such argument.

This is where making up that the Bible was lost comes into play. The defense made up that he Bible was lost to say they had no ability to examine it and thus reasonably had no ability to figure out what page it had been opened to.  Since it was a trial exhibit they could indeed have looked at it had they wanted to the court held and thus their argument was invalid.  But they tried...
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli