Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible

[Holly Goodhead]

This is a perfect example of not only how lazy Vanezis was but also thoughtless. He never tried to plug in all the evidence together in making his assessment of whether she committed suicide. He left ti to other experts to deal with most of the evidence other than the physical injuries.

You keep referring to post conviction assessments (brought out during the 2002 appeal.  What those assessments assert is that Sheila was shot while seated propped up against something, her neck was bent to her right side (the wounds were also to the right) and the blood flowed down her right shoulder/breast area. Shortly after dying she was dragged flat and then the blood flow changed. It ran down the side of her arm and down the side of her neck pooling next to her and the Bible was finally placed in such pool of blood. 

Vanezis said she was seated during the first shot and remained so after thus resulting in the blood going down her right side.  Moreover he recognized she put her palm/wrist to her wound resulting in blood leaking down her forearm.  Where Vanezis differed from the argument made at the appeal is that he claimed she fell flat immediately after the second shot from the force of the shot while the post conviction experts said she was dragged flat.   

Vanezis screwed up. He failed to recognize that Sheila would have to be propped against something in order to remain partially seated after the first shot.  he simply pretended that she was sitting in the middle of the floor and either shot herself or was shot then in the same location shot herself again or was shot again then because she died she fell flat and the blood flow changed.

Because he failed to recognize she was propped against something he failed to recognize she was dragged flat subsequently. The blood lab experts failed to consider the issue either.

If their failure had been due to a lack of scientific knowledge about these issues and new science available in 2002 led to the government experts recognizing this then it would have been able to be used in the appeal. But it wasn't new science it was simply negligence on the part of Vanezis and the  others that they failed to recognize the significance of this. The know-how existed in 1985 they simply didn't failed to properly consider it.

They also failed to properly consider that the Bible being placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death proves someone else had to be there to place it in such pool of blood. This was the second new argument made on appeal. It too was rejected for the same reason- the experts had enough know-how to realize this if they properly evaluated the scene. That they failed to do so until after the conviction is their tough luck.

Let's contrast this with DNA. They didn't know about DNA at the tie so reasonably didn't have the ability to do NA testing. If DNA testing were to prove Bamber the killer such could be used on appeal to argue against his release but the only things the jury did not consider that the government can use are things the government reasonably could not have known about at the time of trial.

The blood flow issues are pretty basic either they dropped the ball or they intentionally chose not to use such argument because they felt they didn't need to or felt it would muddy up the works.  There are no documents that suggest the prosecution experts realized this issue so most likely it is the former but either way it can't be used. 

The same exact rules apply to the defense. Things they could and should have known about they can't use on appeal. Only things they reasonably could not have known about can be used.  Many times on TV you see lawyers playing games and objections being made and sustained. On these shows it is to try to poison the jury with ideas that they can't really make. While that exists to a limited extent in real life the main reason lawyers object is to preserve an issue for appeal. You can only appeal on arguments you make and lose in court. So many maneuverings are to get things in the record. If you fail to make an argument and get it in the record you can't make it on appeal except where you reasonably had no ability to know about such argument.

This is where making up that the Bible was lost comes into play. The defense made up that he Bible was lost to say they had no ability to examine it and thus reasonably had no ability to figure out what page it had been opened to.  Since it was a trial exhibit they could indeed have looked at it had they wanted to the court held and thus their argument was invalid.  But they tried...

I've learned something new today...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454

[david1819]

This is a perfect example of not only how lazy Vanezis was but also thoughtless. He never tried to plug in all the evidence together in making his assessment of whether she committed suicide. He left ti to other experts to deal with most of the evidence other than the physical injuries.

Vanezis has been telling porky pies

[Caroline]

Vanezis has been telling porky pies

Not necessarily.

[Opal]

That's an interesting post from John via Holly!

Could this also mean that SC's wasn't the last person killed that night?

[Holly Goodhead]

Vanezis has been telling porky pies

Are you able to elaborate David?

There's no evidence that any of the experts, including JB's defence, had any significant experience with firearms as might be expected given the low incidence in the UK of cases involving firearms.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

That's an interesting post from John via Holly!

Could this also mean that SC's wasn't the last person killed that night?

I'm not sure?  I just took it to mean that blood can leak from a deceased person hours later whether the person is moved or not?

[Opal]

I should have said....

Could this also bring into the equation that maybe Sheila wasn't the last person killed. The order of the families deaths seemed important to JB and his solicitor, probably to do with the inheritance. 

The night of the murders JB says the family were discussing the twins being fostered, yet a friend spoke of a phone call from June Bamber where June spoke of adopting the twins as SC' couldn't look after them properly, and she was worried the twins would be taken away to be fostered.  If JB was aware of this fact it would mean the twins would share the families inheritance  with SC and JB.

[APRIL]

I should have said....

Could this also bring into the equation that maybe Sheila wasn't the last person killed. The order of the families deaths seemed important to JB and his solicitor, probably to do with the inheritance. 

The night of the murders JB says the family were discussing the twins being fostered, yet a friend spoke of a phone call from June Bamber where June spoke of adopting the twins as SC' couldn't look after them properly, and she was worried the twins would be taken away to be fostered.  If JB was aware of this fact it would mean the twins would share the families inheritance  with SC and JB.

Opal Hello. Blue is peppered with apocryphal stories. This MAY be another. To the best of my knowledge, June and Nevill weren't even the children's legal guardians and Colin would NEVER have agreed to such a move. Something, I feel certain, June would have been aware of.

[Caroline]

Are you able to elaborate David?

There's no evidence that any of the experts, including JB's defence, had any significant experience with firearms as might be expected given the low incidence in the UK of cases involving firearms.

Like I said previously, the palm print would have implications for the notion that Sheila's hands were clean. However, if it was planted by the killer and the killer changed their mind (for whatever reason), then they could easily have wiped her hands. 

[scipio_usmc]

I've learned something new today...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454

When the heart is pumping it will pump blood out of wounds. When the heart stops pumping blood will largely stop flowing. It will only continue to flow as a result of gravity. So any blood above a wound can still flow out as a result of gravity. Even after the heart stopped any blood in Sheila's head could still leak out of her neck wound theoretically. When she was flat though there was a limited amount of blood that could flow out as a result of gravity. That is why the pool of blood that ran down the side of her neck is limited. Only if her heart was still pumping would blood circulate from lower regions to her upper regions and be in a position to be forced out while she was flat.

The blood didn't flow on top of the Bible which is what would happen if the Bible was there as she bled on top of it. The Bible was placed in the blood after it was already there. The only blood that leaked onto the Bible from her body was the blood that ran down the side of her arm. It moreso hit the piece of paper sticking out of the Bible though. The blood on her arm and the paper doesn't line up perfectly which means there was a little movement at some point. Experts say this is another sign she was murdered and that someone moved the body. Given how slight the movement was I don't rule out police though as being able to do it. If it was substantial movement then in that case I would say police didn't do it but considering how slight I consider it theoretically possible without them even realizing they did it and without intending to do it.   

[scipio_usmc]

Vanezis has been telling porky pies

No he was just lazy and did not do what he should have. Inspite of his negligence they caught Jeremy but they might not have which is why people were so disturbed that they commissioned the Dickinson Report.

[Holly Goodhead]

Opal Hello. Blue is peppered with apocryphal stories. This MAY be another. To the best of my knowledge, June and Nevill weren't even the children's legal guardians and Colin would NEVER have agreed to such a move. Something, I feel certain, June would have been aware of.

If you care to read CC's mother's WS (Mrs Doris Brencher (DB)) on "Blue" you will see that June discusses her fears with DB that the twins might be fostered.   However unlikely this might be in the legal sense of child custody it's a fear June might have created in SC.  Bearing in mind both women were mentally unwell. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Like I said previously, the palm print would have implications for the notion that Sheila's hands were clean. However, if it was planted by the killer and the killer changed their mind (for whatever reason), then they could easily have wiped her hands.

Is there any expert evidence that the blood staining was indicative of a palm print?

[Caroline]

Is there any expert evidence that the blood staining was indicative of a palm print?

Depends what you mean by 'expert'?

[Holly Goodhead]

When the heart is pumping it will pump blood out of wounds. When the heart stops pumping blood will largely stop flowing. It will only continue to flow as a result of gravity. So any blood above a wound can still flow out as a result of gravity. Even after the heart stopped any blood in Sheila's head could still leak out of her neck wound theoretically. When she was flat though there was a limited amount of blood that could flow out as a result of gravity. That is why the pool of blood that ran down the side of her neck is limited. Only if her heart was still pumping would blood circulate from lower regions to her upper regions and be in a position to be forced out while she was flat.

The blood didn't flow on top of the Bible which is what would happen if the Bible was there as she bled on top of it. The Bible was placed in the blood after it was already there. The only blood that leaked onto the Bible from her body was the blood that ran down the side of her arm. It moreso hit the piece of paper sticking out of the Bible though. The blood on her arm and the paper doesn't line up perfectly which means there was a little movement at some point. Experts say this is another sign she was murdered and that someone moved the body. Given how slight the movement was I don't rule out police though as being able to do it. If it was substantial movement then in that case I would say police didn't do it but considering how slight I consider it theoretically possible without them even realizing they did it and without intending to do it.

I started to read what happens to the body post death and became grossed out and I've no intention of going there again!

John said his farm animals can bleed post death some 24 hours later.  Are animals different from humans in this regard?

Why were photos of the blood staining on the bible taken elsewhere and not at SoC?