Jeremy Bamber - The bloodied fingerprints and the Bible

[Holly Goodhead]

Depends what you mean by 'expert'?

Someone having the ncessary qualifications to act as an expert witness in a criminal trial. 

I guess someone with relevant qualifciations in bloodstain pattern analysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstain_pattern_analysis

[Caroline]

Someone having the ncessary qualifications to act as an expert witness in a criminal trial. 

I guess someone with relevant qualifciations in blood pattern analysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstain_pattern_analysis

Then in that case, not as far as I know.

[APRIL]

If you care to read CC's mother's WS (Mrs Doris Brencher (DB)) on "Blue" you will see that June discusses her fears with DB that the twins might be fostered.   However unlikely this might be in the legal sense of child custody it's a fear June might have created in SC.  Bearing in mind both women were mentally unwell.

I was referring to the allegation that June spoke of adopting the twins. I think it highly likely that she planted, in Sheila's mind, the seed of their being fostered.

[Holly Goodhead]

Then in that case, not as far as I know.

Fair enough.  Sometimes amateur sleuths can deliever results due to the fact that they are not under commercial constraints ie time is money.  This has happened in other cases.

Any ideas why, according to the 3 appeal court judges, photos of the blood stains were taken elsewhere and not at SoC? 

(As an aside do you think the pink in my avatar clashes with the background?  I'm wondering if a lighter pink with blue sky might go better?)

[Holly Goodhead]

I was referring to the allegation that June spoke of adopting the twins. I think it highly likely that she planted, in Sheila's mind, the seed of their being fostered.

Fair enough but if June herself had fears the twins might be fostered, as discussed with Doris Brencher, then June may have created the same fear in SC bearing in mind, as I said, both women were mentally unwell and suffered from delusions. 

Often if a parent has a fear, irrational or not, they can create the same fear in their children?

June told SC she was the Devil's child and SC then became concerned that God didn't love her.

[david1819]

Fair enough but if June herself had fears the twins might be fostered, as discussed with Doris Brencher, then June may have created the same fear in SC bearing in mind, as I said, both women were mentally unwell and suffered from delusions. 

Often if a parent has a fear, irrational or not, they can create the same fear in their children?

June told SC she was the Devil's child and SC then became concerned that God didn't love her.

Iv have got my hands on an abundance of scientific studies on schizophrenic women who commit murder.
Its rather interesting.

Below is two extracts I pasted from  a study called Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study with female forensic patients (2007)

Prototypical for the infanticide cluster in our sample was a 30 year-old, divorced, white woman from a middle-class family. She killed her 9-month old daughter by setting fire to the crib after getting angry and suspicious that her husband's family wanted to take the baby away from her. She had been suffering from an acute psychotic reaction with paranoid and depressive features.


As a second group, filicide was identified as having its own motivational profile. This cluster was defined by
severely depressed mothers with a history of self-directed violence. These women tended to kill an older child by
stabbing, and they often end up trying to commit suicide right after the filicidal offence. The connection with suicide attempts supported the hypothesis that there was a different underlying syndrome that predisposed these women to kill an older child. Within this group, psychosocial factors played less of a role than psychological ones. Our findings indicated that a history of child abuse together with a history of depression was mainly associated with this cluster.

[Caroline]

Fair enough.  Sometimes amateur sleuths can deliever results due to the fact that they are not under commercial constraints ie time is money.  This has happened in other cases.

Any ideas why, according to the 3 appeal court judges, photos of the blood stains were taken elsewhere and not at SoC? 

(As an aside do you think the pink in my avatar clashes with the background?  I'm wondering if a lighter pink with blue sky might go better?)

They are talking about the open bible, it was most likely photographed by SOCO, back at the police station - but that's just a guess.

(I like the pink - cherry blossom reminds me of summer but some blue wouldn't hurt).

[Caroline]

Iv have got my hands on an abundance of scientific studies on schizophrenic women who commit murder.
Its rather interesting.

Below is two extracts I pasted from  a study called Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study with female forensic patients (2007)

Prototypical for the infanticide cluster in our sample was a 30 year-old, divorced, white woman from a middle-class family. She killed her 9-month old daughter by setting fire to the crib after getting angry and suspicious that her husband's family wanted to take the baby away from her. She had been suffering from an acute psychotic reaction with paranoid and depressive features.


As a second group, filicide was identified as having its own motivational profile. This cluster was defined by
severely depressed mothers with a history of self-directed violence. These women tended to kill an older child by
stabbing, and they often end up trying to commit suicide right after the filicidal offence. The connection with suicide attempts supported the hypothesis that there was a different underlying syndrome that predisposed these women to kill an older child. Within this group, psychosocial factors played less of a role than psychological ones. Our findings indicated that a history of child abuse together with a history of depression was mainly associated with this cluster.

And there will be as many (if not MORE) instances of children who kill their parents for the inheritance. What's your point?

[Myster]

(As an aside do you think the pink in my avatar clashes with the background?  I'm wondering if a lighter pink with blue sky might go better?)

Think you'd better have mine, otherwise I'll be coming out with embarrassing puns such as "What a Gay Day!", "My friend, Everard!" and "Kiss my Astraka...."

http://deskbg.com/i/c/1920x1200/wpp/0/440/cherry-blossom-desktop-background.jpg

[scipio_usmc]

Iv have got my hands on an abundance of scientific studies on schizophrenic women who commit murder.
Its rather interesting.

Below is two extracts I pasted from  a study called Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study with female forensic patients (2007)

Prototypical for the infanticide cluster in our sample was a 30 year-old, divorced, white woman from a middle-class family. She killed her 9-month old daughter by setting fire to the crib after getting angry and suspicious that her husband's family wanted to take the baby away from her. She had been suffering from an acute psychotic reaction with paranoid and depressive features.


As a second group, filicide was identified as having its own motivational profile. This cluster was defined by
severely depressed mothers with a history of self-directed violence. These women tended to kill an older child by
stabbing, and they often end up trying to commit suicide right after the filicidal offence. The connection with suicide attempts supported the hypothesis that there was a different underlying syndrome that predisposed these women to kill an older child. Within this group, psychosocial factors played less of a role than psychological ones. Our findings indicated that a history of child abuse together with a history of depression was mainly associated with this cluster.

What's so interesting?  It is not even remotely like anything that allegedly happened in this case.

[scipio_usmc]

Is there any expert evidence that the blood staining was indicative of a palm print?

No this suggestion has come from people who never even saw the photos in their hand let alone the body. No experts who took part in the case at any stage assessed such.  It is speculation from amateurs who looked images blown up on the computer.

The lab personnel who examined the Bible observed no prints of any kind in the blood they only found ordinary finger prints. They found the prints of what they believed were children because the finger prints were so small and of June.

[Opal]

I was referring to the allegation that June spoke of adopting the twins. I think it highly likely that she planted, in Sheila's mind, the seed of their being fostered.

Hi April!
The point I was trying to make regarding the twins adoption or fostering hours before the murders is that we only have JB's say so that this conversation actually took place. The "fostering" was just 'Day Fostering' which had happened before when SC's was living in London.  So therefore if the conversation did take place that night, it wasn't anything new to Sheila. It is actually stated that Sheila enjoyed the free time that the twins spent in 'Day Fostering' . 

[APRIL]

Hi April!
The point I was trying to make regarding the twins adoption or fostering hours before the murders is that we only have JB's say so that this conversation actually took place. The "fostering" was just 'Day Fostering' which had happened before when SC's was living in London.  So therefore if the conversation did take place that night, it wasn't anything new to Sheila. It is actually stated that Sheila enjoyed the free time that the twins spent in 'Day Fostering' .

Opal, indeed we do only have Jeremy's word for ANY conversation which occurred at WHF that night.

I would hazard a guess that freedom from the twins may not have been Sheila's only enjoyment whilst in London. I suspect she became more her own person when she was away from June. I think it likely that June was able to reduce Sheila to the status of a needy child causing all her childhood fears and guilt to surface.

[Opal]

Yes I agree April, In my opinion June was struggling with her own religious problems, and therefore no help to SC. I can quite see why SC didn't want to stay at WHF.  But, was this the discussion on the night? It's the statement from BW on ringing the house at around 9.30 pm stating that Neville was short with her, and her comments that she felt all was not well at this time, that has me wondering.

Points that night:

JB. leaves the kitchen to shoot at rabbits
NB leaves kitchen soon after.
JB. leaves NB to collect the last rape collection. Why? JB had been there all day, why not finish the job unless after row with NB..JB walked out leaving gun on settle knowing it would upset NB.

Was JB still at the farm arguing with NB when BW rang? Could possibly have been!

All was quiet at farm by 10.00pm when June's sister rang. NB being out on tractor.....June states that SC was just off to bed.
Julie M states JB said he pissed off when he spoke to her.

[Caroline]

Yes I agree April, In my opinion June was struggling with her own religious problems, and therefore no help to SC. I can quite see why SC didn't want to stay at WHF.  But, was this the discussion on the night? It's the statement from BW on ringing the house at around 9.30 pm stating that Neville was short with her, and her comments that she felt all was not well at this time, that has me wondering.

Points that night:

JB. leaves the kitchen to shoot at rabbits
NB leaves kitchen soon after.
JB. leaves NB to collect the last rape collection. Why? JB had been there all day, why not finish the job unless after row with NB..JB walked out leaving gun on settle knowing it would upset NB.

Was JB still at the farm arguing with NB when BW rang? Could possibly have been!

All was quiet at farm by 10.00pm when June's sister rang. NB being out on tractor.....June states that SC was just off to bed.
Julie M states JB said he pissed off when he spoke to her.

This is something I have questioned, personally I think they had an argument and Jeremy stormed off. I don't think he left the gun on the settle - if he had already loaded it, he would have had to leave it somewhere where it wouldn't be noticed.

Another thing, initially he said he had shot at the rabbits, he later changed his mind. I guess he realised that had he shot at the bunnies, there would have to be some trace. If he missed, then there would be bullets in the vicinity, if he'd hit one, there would be either a dead rabbit or blood.

It's similar to when he was first arrested and asked about the windows at WHF. Once he found out police knew he could gain entry via a window and exit the same way (locking the window from the outside); he went to WHF entered through the window BUT left a note for BW to lock the window because he couldn't. This is blatantly a message to police to say "well, OK, I can get in, but I can't lock the window from the outside. See? I have to ask BW to lock it for me"