Author Topic: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.  (Read 16360 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2018, 10:51:37 AM »
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9528.msg441998.html#msg441998

Even David is saying they are burn marks. His thread posts highlights experts, who also say they are burn marks. The COA say they 'appear to be burn marks'.

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There are several reasons why Bamber burned Nevill's back -


Bamber had put Nevill onto a coal scuttle where his bare back was easily available.

Nevill was immobilised.  He would not fight back from the burns.

The aga was next to Nevill.

There were rifles available to heat & use.

Bamber wanted to make sure Nevill was dead for reasons mentioned.

Bamber was composed & calculated enough to calm down after the kitchen fight to do burn Nevill's back.

Bamber had time to burn Nevill's back.

Bamber had to ensure Nevill was dead as Nevill would incriminate him if he survived.

Bamber may have considered this option beforehand if he felt he had to check for life.

If this was considered beforehand by Bamber, he could have brought his own burning item.

If a rifle nozzle would take several minutes to heat sufficiently, Bamber could attend to other framing business.

The evidence is Bamber took off the silencer after shooting Sheila. So had the rifle nozzle available to burn Nevill's back. Although as said other rifles were available.

There are no other credible alternative explanations why Nevill would have what experts say there are three recent burn marks on his back which are the same size as rifle nozzles.

Burning Nevill's back is an effective way to check for life. A partially concious Nevill would certainly react.

Nevill was only shot 4 times upstairs. Bamber may have burnt Nevill's back prior to or while shooting him again downstairs. Bamber would not have known how many more shots were needed at Nevill after the kitchen fight. Burning his back after 1-4 shots is a way to check for life.

David's opinion is no more or less relevant than any other lay person's.  I find David has a dearth of critical thinking skills to the point he becomes intensely irritating!  Eg:

David:  "When you consider the fact that NB's burns ...."

Holly:  It's not a fact the marks were burns.  Prof Knight didn't think so and Dr Vanezis was unsure as per trial testimony in post #1 of OP. 

David the fact you see and/or hear something and interpret it a certain way doesn't make it a fact. 

Philip Boyce and the expert from Arizona were no doubt misled into thinking the pathologist had determined the marks were definitely burns which is not the case.  Philip Boyce is a ballistics expert and the expert (burns/pathology?) from Arizona said more tests were required. 

NGB said he thought the perp inflicted the burns to check for life but it makes no sense to me why the perp would single out NB having inflicted 8 gsw's with 4 to the head and then check for life.  June sustained 7/8 gsw's with 2 to the head so why did June escape any 'tests for life'?

Adam the kettle was on the Aga.  If the perp wanted to check for life then why not just boil the kettle and use boiling water? 

Has anyone ever obtained NB's medi records? 

We know NB sustained a plane crash WW2 and had his back in plaster.  If he had some sort of metal plates, screws inserted how would these appear PM and what appearance would the surrounding skin take on?  Would any blood congeal internally around these objects?  We know blood drains away post death to the lowest points and given NB's found position this might account for it? 

Adam I'm glad I'm not the only one who writes long posts!   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2018, 10:54:50 AM »
Off the top of my head, it's just possible that those prod marks? HAD they occurred that night, were inflicted because it had taken much more effort to dispatch Nevill than the others. I once suggested the marks MAY have been the result of minor procedures. I still believe that to be a possibility, as is your own suggestion of injuries going back to WW2.

Yes another possibility.  If you're working outside most of the time, which NB did, it would put him at higher risk of developing skin cancer.  Sun protection wasn't at the forefront of people's minds pre 80's like it is today for many.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Alice

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2018, 11:01:57 AM »
Nope. I have seen very many scars left after sun damaged skin has been removed and all are white and with a characteristic rippling or wrinkling. None are black and look like the end of a rifle.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2018, 11:02:15 AM »
Could be Holly, a lot of old miners used to have blue scarring from wounds inflicted underground, I had a slight blue scar above one of my eyes (faded now) the wounds never got the thorough washout, normally like Alice said they eventually heal white, but if dirt has got in they tend to heal blueish.

No longer do we see blue scars on bodies and faces where broken skin healed over the coal dust. Dilapidated buildings and slag heaps are the reminders.

Yep another possibility.   Farming is considered a high risk occupation along with industries like mining and construction.  Perhaps more so pre 80's when farming was more labour intensive and elf n safety hadn't kicked in. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2018, 11:05:10 AM »
Nope. I have seen very many scars left after sun damaged skin has been removed and all are white and with a characteristic rippling or wrinkling. None are black and look like the end of a rifle.

But have you seen the scars on persons deceased?  As I understand it the skin and existing scars etc take on a different appearance post death? 

I don't think the marks look anything like a muzzle imprint. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2018, 11:14:28 AM »
Dr Vanezis suggested NB's non-gsw's eg bruises, lacerations etc were caused by butt of rifle and barrel but I haven't seen anything from him attributing the marks to his back being caused by the muzzle of the rifle?  This seems to have originated from lay people and taken on a life of its own. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Alice

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2018, 12:48:31 PM »
There is no biological reason why a white scar should go black after death. The whiteness is the uniqueness of scar tissue and livor mortis would not alter that. To be honest I'm not convinced the burns were caused by the end of the rifle, that is just one possibility. It may be that a more likely implement is a fire poker - I assume the Aga was lit that night and still burning.

Offline adam

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2018, 01:12:51 PM »
Yes another possibility.  If you're working outside most of the time, which NB did, it would put him at higher risk of developing skin cancer.  Sun protection wasn't at the forefront of people's minds pre 80's like it is today for many.

Would skin cancer be three very similar marks on the back ?

Everyone has to agree they are burn marks. As the experts have said. David and NGB do agree, saying Sheila suddenly stopped her rage & waited patiently while her chosen instrument heated up.

Other explanations about plane crashes or farming are too outlandish.

Bamber had an aga, the instruments,  the time, the motives & the opportunity to burn Nevill's back. It is the only credible explanation after the killer was strong enough to lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:14:54 PM by adam »

Offline adam

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2018, 01:16:47 PM »
Bamber would only lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle, to get access to his bare back.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2018, 04:21:45 PM »
There is no biological reason why a white scar should go black after death. The whiteness is the uniqueness of scar tissue and livor mortis would not alter that. To be honest I'm not convinced the burns were caused by the end of the rifle, that is just one possibility. It may be that a more likely implement is a fire poker - I assume the Aga was lit that night and still burning.

Were the marks black?  I know they look black in the images but I'm not sure the images are an accurate reflection based on the trial testimony.

Yes I believe the Aga was on.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2018, 04:29:24 PM »
Would skin cancer be three very similar marks on the back ?

Everyone has to agree they are burn marks. As the experts have said. David and NGB do agree, saying Sheila suddenly stopped her rage & waited patiently while her chosen instrument heated up.

Other explanations about plane crashes or farming are too outlandish.

Bamber had an aga, the instruments,  the time, the motives & the opportunity to burn Nevill's back. It is the only credible explanation after the killer was strong enough to lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle.

Skin cancer or precancerous moles.  The marks are different in shape, size and colour.

The experts haven't all said they were burns.  Dr V thought so but wasn't sure.  Prof Knight was disinclined to
think so.

Theories about post surgery from a plane crash and farming accidents are no more outlandish than the idea JB or SC heated up the rifle in the Aga and then applied to NB to check for life.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2018, 06:23:26 PM »
Were the marks black?  I know they look black in the images but I'm not sure the images are an accurate reflection based on the trial testimony.

Yes I believe the Aga was on.

The images are now maybe not accurrate ? That is a shame. It is what everyone has been going by for 33 years.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 07:16:33 PM by adam »

Offline Caroline

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2018, 07:18:39 PM »
Skin cancer or precancerous moles.  The marks are different in shape, size and colour.

The experts haven't all said they were burns.  Dr V thought so but wasn't sure.  Prof Knight was disinclined to
think so.

Theories about post surgery from a plane crash and farming accidents are no more outlandish than the idea JB or SC heated up the rifle in the Aga and then applied to NB to check for life.

Who burns someone to check for life? I find the notion of that a bit mad.

Offline adam

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2018, 07:20:25 PM »
It has to be assumed the burn marks were made on the night. Unless evidence is provided that Nevill had them beforehand. Nothing has ever been provided.

Bamber & the CT have never disputed this as far as I know.

The COA included the back marks in it's list of injuries Nevill sustained in the bedroom & kitchen.

Offline adam

Re: Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2018, 07:22:49 PM »
Who burns someone to check for life? I find the notion of that a bit mad.

I have given 14 reasons why Bamber would.

It would only take a few seconds. While the aga was heating the rifle, Bamber could continue framing the scene.

In Bamber's situation how would you have checked for life ?