Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.

[Myster]

Was blood found on the coal scuttle?  I don't recall reading anything to this effect?

Can you not spotify it in the photo?  If we can see it now, so did they then.

[Holly Goodhead]

Can you not spotify it in the photo?  If we can see it now, so did they then.

Possibly, but then I would feel a bit bare around the bottom! 

Is there an image of the coal scuttle with blood stains? 

[Caroline]

Was blood found on the coal scuttle?  I don't recall reading anything to this effect?

Yes, a lot.

[Myster]

Possibly, but then I would feel a bit bare around the bottom! 

Is there an image of the coal scuttle with blood stains?

Not any that I've seen. Caro might have, as she's seen more than most, poor gal!

I think Cook removed it along with other evidence days after the murders.

[Caroline]

I can't post the picture that I have because I promised I never would. However attached is a picture of the coal scuttle, all of the dark trails are blood.

[Myster]

I remember reading that under certain circumstances, such as in high temperatures (hot kitchen) and stressful encounters (the violent assault which Nevill was subject to), a phenomenon called instantaneous rigor or cadaveric spasm might have occurred which resulted in that precariously balanced position he was found in, despite being partially supported by the back wall as Caroline stated.

Usually affects (not effects!) smaller muscle groups, e.g. hands, but in this case could possibly have involved upper and lower leg muscles as well?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

[Holly Goodhead]

Not any that I've seen. Caro might have, as she's seen more than most, poor gal!

I think Cook removed it along with other evidence days after the murders.

I can't recall it being mentioned in any docs eg DC Hammersley's trial testimony where he goes through most of the exhibits seized from soc or any of the docs from FSS eg John Hayward's blood sampling tests.  I guess it was assumed the blood stains originated from NB and I can't think of any reason to doubt this. 

Dr Vanezis is asked about marks to NB's head from the scuttle which he refers to as "artifacts" but confirms there were no injuries as such, perhaps suggestive that his head arrived in that position on the scuttle without force.     

[Holly Goodhead]

I can't post the picture that I have because I promised I never would. However attached is a picture of the coal scuttle, all of the dark trails are blood.

Thanks.  I'm assuming those dark trails are definitely blood stains and not coal dust stains caused maybe by the scuttle forming condensation on the outside from the Aga/heat/cooking and then forming dark liquid trails? 

[Caroline]

Thanks.  I'm assuming those dark trails are definitely blood stains and not coal dust stains caused maybe by the scuttle forming condensation on the outside from the Aga/heat/cooking and then forming dark liquid trails?

It id DEFINEITELY blood.

[Holly Goodhead]

It id DEFINEITELY blood.

Oh so what's your thinking?  How did NB's head end up there?  How does it implicate JB?

I can't really make any sense out of the silhouetted image.

This is from Dr V's TT:

Q:  On the left hand side---I should make it clear that as part of the post mortem you shaved the victim's head.

A:  That is right.

Q:  On the left hand side of 6 there are two lines going along, what are they?

A:  These are artefacts produced by pressure from the coal scuttle where the deceased was found but nothing to do with any injuries.

So it seems from above NB's head was placed there or somehow landed gently otherwise I guess bruising/grazing might be expected if his landed with a thump on the rim of the scuttle?

[Caroline]

Oh so what's your thinking?  How did NB's head end up there?  How does it implicate JB?

I can't really make any sense out of the silhouetted image.

This is from Dr V's TT:

Q:  On the left hand side---I should make it clear that as part of the post mortem you shaved the victim's head.

A:  That is right.

Q:  On the left hand side of 6 there are two lines going along, what are they?

A:  These are artefacts produced by pressure from the coal scuttle where the deceased was found but nothing to do with any injuries.

So it seems from above NB's head was placed there or somehow landed gently otherwise I guess bruising/grazing might be expected if his landed with a thump on the rim of the scuttle?

I think it was placed there and his body wasn't moved because hypostasis was consistent with the position at the scene.

[adam]

Oh so what's your thinking?  How did NB's head end up there?  How does it implicate JB?

I can't really make any sense out of the silhouetted image.

This is from Dr V's TT:

Q:  On the left hand side---I should make it clear that as part of the post mortem you shaved the victim's head.

A:  That is right.

Q:  On the left hand side of 6 there are two lines going along, what are they?

A:  These are artefacts produced by pressure from the coal scuttle where the deceased was found but nothing to do with any injuries.

So it seems from above NB's head was placed there or somehow landed gently otherwise I guess bruising/grazing might be expected if his landed with a thump on the rim of the scuttle?

That is correct.

Nevill falling forward or backwards due to Bamber's rifle blows would land on the floor. Either falling backwards or forwards to land face first or on his back on the floor.

There is a small chance he would land on the table. But not on a chair or kneeling into a lightwwight coal scuttle. He was too heavy to do either.

Bamber lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle to have full shooting & burning access to Nevill's head & bare back.

[John]

I wonder who placed the seat cushion from the overturned chair on the floor beside the Aga?   Could this have been done to stem the spread of blood across the floor by a killer who intended to live in that house afterwards?

[Caroline]

I wonder who placed the seat cushion from the overturned chair on the floor beside the Aga?   Could this have been done to stem the spread of blood across the floor by a killer who intended to live in that house afterwards?

Actually John, that cushion isn't from the overturned chair. The cushion from that chair was on the floor near the blue plastic swing bin.

[John]

Actually John, that cushion isn't from the overturned chair. The cushion from that chair was on the floor near the blue plastic swing bin.

Are we to assume that the way the cushions were set out post incident was the same as they were prior to the killing, ie blue cushions at one end of the table and red ones at the other end?