Prof Knight's Trial Testimony Re Marks to NB's back.

[Myster]

I wonder who placed the seat cushion from the overturned chair on the floor beside the Aga?   Could this have been done to stem the spread of blood across the floor by a killer who intended to live in that house afterwards?

Such a strange thing for a killer to do though, stacking cushions and laying trousers so neatly around the body, when he really needed to be away from the scene asap.  Is it not more likely that one of the TFU, or the police detectives who entered just after they left were responsible, to prevent further contamination of the crime scene?

[Caroline]

Perhaps, the red cushions seem to go with the bigger chairs.

[Caroline]

Such a strange thing for a killer to do though, stacking cushions and laying trousers so neatly around the body, when he really needed to be away from the scene asap. Is it not more likely that one of the TFU, or the police detectives who entered just after they left were responsible, to prevent further contamination of the crime scene?

I think that's more liley.

[adam]

Such a strange thing for a killer to do though, stacking cushions and laying trousers so neatly around the body, when he really needed to be away from the scene asap.  Is it not more likely that one of the TFU, or the police detectives who entered just after they left were responsible, to prevent further contamination of the crime scene?

Never noticed the cushion before. It is another item that fell onto the floor during the fight.

There is no reason why Bamber would fold trousers up and put them on the floor. They must have been left there before the massacre & fell on the floor during the fight.

[Holly Goodhead]

Such a strange thing for a killer to do though, stacking cushions and laying trousers so neatly around the body, when he really needed to be away from the scene asap.  Is it not more likely that one of the TFU, or the police detectives who entered just after they left were responsible, to prevent further contamination of the crime scene?

Or Dr Craig if he needed close proximity to certify death. 

What was PC Wright's role?  He was the officer from the coroner's office. 

[Myster]

Or Dr Craig if he needed close proximity to certify death. 

What was PC Wright's role?  He was the officer from the coroner's office.

Dunno... better ask Caroline to post his September '85, and 1991 COLP statements.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thinking about the kitchen soc from a JB innocent perspective I've always thought the disarray was caused when NB and perp (SC imo) arrived in the kitchen after the shootings upstairs but I guess some of the disarray could have been caused beforehand. 

Anyway re NB's found position I don't see anything suspicious in him straddling the back of the chair.  He was a tall man 6' 4" with long legs and could easily have fallen on the back of the chair in effect straddling it as found.  He obviously could not have remained in an upright position and ended up falling forwards as opposed to backwards?

What I do find a little odd is how NB's head ended up in the coal scuttle without any sort of minor injury/tell tale sign.  Although Dr Vanezis didn't make any comment to this effect.  Is it possible NB's head was hanging with blood pooling internally and officers, Dr Craig or PC Wright from the coroners office moved NB's head to the coal scuttle for whatever reason(s) thus releasing pooled blood?  It seems to me that NB and SC bled out from their gsw's but this doesn't appear to be the case with June based on an albeit poor quality soc image.  June sustained a gsw between the eyes but I can't see any blood on the surrounding carpet?  Could this be accounted for by the fact June wasn't moved? 

The idea JB or SC went about re-positioning NB to burn his back, inflict gsw's on his head, build a blood dam etc is not plausible imo.  If JB was responsible he wanted everyone dead and out.  If he was concerned about NB living to tell the tale he would be just as concerned about June. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Save me looking it up does anyone know what the exact process is when victims are removed from soc to path lab?  Could it be that these people started moving victims before they had been photographed?

I hope I'm not going to gross anyone out on a Sunday morning but just looked up a couple of things re what happens to the body upon death, which I don't recall from biology lessons, and all muscles relax including the sphincter and bladder which should give a further indication of found positions? 

[Caroline]

Thinking about the kitchen soc from a JB innocent perspective I've always thought the disarray was caused when NB and perp (SC imo) arrived in the kitchen after the shootings upstairs but I guess some of the disarray could have been caused beforehand. 

Anyway re NB's found position I don't see anything suspicious in him straddling the back of the chair.  He was a tall man 6' 4" with long legs and could easily have fallen on the back of the chair in effect straddling it as found.  He obviously could not have remained in an upright position and ended up falling forwards as opposed to backwards?

What I do find a little odd is how NB's head ended up in the coal scuttle without any sort of minor injury/tell tale sign.  Although Dr Vanezis didn't make any comment to this effect.  Is it possible NB's head was hanging with blood pooling internally and officers, Dr Craig or PC Wright from the coroners office moved NB's head to the coal scuttle for whatever reason(s) thus releasing pooled blood?  It seems to me that NB and SC bled out from their gsw's but this doesn't appear to be the case with June based on an albeit poor quality soc image.  June sustained a gsw between the eyes but I can't see any blood on the surrounding carpet?  Could this be accounted for by the fact June wasn't moved? 

The idea JB or SC went about re-positioning NB to burn his back, inflict gsw's on his head, build a blood dam etc is not plausible imo.  If JB was responsible he wanted everyone dead and out.  If he was concerned about NB living to tell the tale he would be just as concerned about June.

Well, I don't buy the burn suggestion BUT, I think there was an argument that eveing but it was between Nevil and Jeremy. I think he was  furious which is why there is over-kill with Nevil and the way he was displayed was just to degrade him that little bit more. I think Nevil probably did fall in a similar position but Jeremy propped him up with the chair and the coal scuttle.

[Caroline]

Save me looking it up does anyone know what the exact process is when victims are removed from soc to path lab?  Could it be that these people started moving victims before they had been photographed?

I hope I'm not going to gross anyone out on a Sunday morning but just looked up a couple of things re what happens to the body upon death, which I don't recall from biology lessons, and all muscles relax including the sphincter and bladder which should give a further indication of found positions?

http://library.college.police.uk/docs/appref/ENFSI-BPM-v1_0.pdf

[adam]

Save me looking it up does anyone know what the exact process is when victims are removed from soc to path lab?  Could it be that these people started moving victims before they had been photographed?

I hope I'm not going to gross anyone out on a Sunday morning but just looked up a couple of things re what happens to the body upon death, which I don't recall from biology lessons, and all muscles relax including the sphincter and bladder which should give a further indication of found positions?

The police have denied moving anything prior to photos being taken. Except two chairs which had already toppled over.

Supporters accuse the police of pulling Sheila's legs, moving Sheila from the bed to the floor, disrupting the kitchen crime scene & shooting Sheila.

So appreciate they will accuse the police of moving Nevill, as Sheila was not strong enough to do this.

[Caroline]

The police have denied moving anything prior to photos being taken. Except two chairs which had already toppled over.

Supporters accuse the police of pulling Sheila's legs, moving Sheila from the bed to the floor, disrupting the kitchen crime scene & shooting Sheila.

So appreciate they will accuse the police of moving Nevill, as Sheila was not strong enough to do this.

There  would be no reason for police to move bodies and I am sure it is a fundemental aspect of their training to lean NOT to move anything prior to documenting the scene.

[Holly Goodhead]

There  would be no reason for police to move bodies and I am sure it is a fundemental aspect of their training to lean NOT to move anything prior to documenting the scene.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9831.msg473533#msg473533

[Caroline]

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9831.msg473533#msg473533

I don't think John was referring to the bodies.