Author Topic: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?  (Read 4681 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #180 on: August 10, 2018, 11:30:00 PM »
It's equally important for the handler to be sure exactly what the dog is alerting to. Who'd want to be stopped at the airport by a narcotics dog handler whose canine barked somewhere near them when they were standing in a queue of people?
They would need to spread the people out to be sure who the dog is sitting beside.
But Eddie is going at a thousand miles an hour and his brain has a reaction time so you won't get a definite identification.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:41:23 PM by Robittybob1 »
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #181 on: August 10, 2018, 11:41:59 PM »
They would need to spread the people out to be sure who the dog is sitting beside.

That's the whole point, Rob. The dog needs to be as precise as possible for the handler, not leave the handler to fathom out which person in the general area may be carrying drugs.

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #182 on: August 10, 2018, 11:54:16 PM »
That's the whole point, Rob. The dog needs to be as precise as possible for the handler, not leave the handler to fathom out which person in the general area may be carrying drugs.
That is why they worked Eddie with Keela, one seemed to identify a general location and the other an exact spot.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #183 on: August 11, 2018, 12:07:06 AM »
That is why they worked Eddie with Keela, one seemed to identify a general location and the other an exact spot.

That works if you are only looking for blood......

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #184 on: August 11, 2018, 12:11:25 AM »
That works if you are only looking for blood......
Or a body or a body part. Something substantial.  Other than blood what else was there going to be?  I don't think Madeleine was stuffed into the base of the couch.  I hope they did turn it over and have a look.
After 3 months you wouldn't need a cadaver dog to find a body in the apartment it would be apparent even to a human nose.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline Sunny

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #185 on: August 11, 2018, 12:27:17 AM »
That works if you are only looking for blood......

Do you have a cite for that?
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #186 on: August 11, 2018, 12:35:02 AM »
Do you have a cite for that?

Yes. Keela only alerted to blood. She would not alert to any other biological residues at a site unless they contained blood. A blood deposit does not a cadaver maketh.

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #187 on: August 11, 2018, 12:38:40 AM »
Do you have a cite for that?
I corrected Misty - blood or a body (including body parts).
Keela was trained to find dried human blood.
Eddie was trained to find decomposed bodies.

It should have been pretty obvious there was no body in apartment 5A so that left only blood left to find.

It might be possible Madeleine fell and dislodged a tooth.  And that tooth had not yet been found but then blood would be expected from that as well. But to die from a dislodged tooth??? 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 12:42:04 AM by Robittybob1 »
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #188 on: August 11, 2018, 12:44:17 AM »
Yes. Keela only alerted to blood. She would not alert to any other biological residues at a site unless they contained blood. A blood deposit does not a cadaver maketh.
Both your's and my post relies on logic.  I don't think there is an actual cite for this.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #189 on: August 11, 2018, 01:02:05 AM »
I corrected Misty - blood or a body (including body parts).
Keela was trained to find dried human blood.
Eddie was trained to find decomposed bodies.

It should have been pretty obvious there was no body in apartment 5A so that left only blood left to find.

It might be possible Madeleine fell and dislodged a tooth.  And that tooth had not yet been found but then blood would be expected from that as well. But to die from a dislodged tooth???


Why would it leave only blood left to find? Eddie would have alerted to nail clippings as well as human teeth. What about Cerebrospinal fluid which can leak from the ear or nose after blunt force trauma - no blood mixed with that.

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #190 on: August 11, 2018, 01:12:41 AM »

Why would it leave only blood left to find? Eddie would have alerted to nail clippings as well as human teeth. What about Cerebrospinal fluid which can leak from the ear or nose after blunt force trauma - no blood mixed with that.
When would nail clippings ever develop cadaver odour.  Nail clippings would be found all around may residential premises, so if you are right there would be no validity in doing a cadaver dog check inside a residence.

The only time nail clippings could have cadaver odour on them would be if the cadaver at least 2 hours old had its nails clipped before it was removed.  Is that likely?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 01:20:38 AM by Robittybob1 »
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #191 on: August 11, 2018, 01:22:41 AM »
When would nail clippings ever develop cadaver odour.  Nail clippings would be found all around may residential premises, so if you are right there would be no validity in doing a cadaver dog check inside a residence.

The only time nail clippings could have cadaver odour on them would be if the cadaver at least 2 hours old had its nails clipped before it was removed.  Is that likely?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VOsbDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA248&lpg=PA248&dq=cadaver+dogs+alert+to+nail+clippings&source=bl&ots=NE70MqYAtB&sig=nGArNSCqPMuCSxGfqMW91qrAPck&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilor7Z3OPcAhUDCsAKHeEvAtA4ChDoATADegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=cadaver%20dogs%20alert%20to%20nail%20clippings&f=false

1st paragraph. Toenail clippings used in training.

Offline Robittybob1

  • Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 15644
  • Total likes: 2420
  • Wisdom and understanding please.
    • The Lord Jesus - search for Madeleine McCann
Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #192 on: August 11, 2018, 01:29:38 AM »
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VOsbDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA248&lpg=PA248&dq=cadaver+dogs+alert+to+nail+clippings&source=bl&ots=NE70MqYAtB&sig=nGArNSCqPMuCSxGfqMW91qrAPck&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilor7Z3OPcAhUDCsAKHeEvAtA4ChDoATADegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=cadaver%20dogs%20alert%20to%20nail%20clippings&f=false

1st paragraph. Toenail clippings used in training.
The author writes "I was told they used ...nail clippings  ..."  So it is an unreliable statement, for the author is unsure of where the nail clippings came from.  It is hearsay at best.

You didn't answer my question to you.  "When would nail clippings ever develop cadaver odour?"

How does anyone get nail clippings impregnated with cadaver odour?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 01:39:09 AM by Robittybob1 »
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #193 on: August 11, 2018, 01:44:57 AM »
The author writes "I was told they used ...nail clippings  ..."  So it is unreliable statement for the author is unsure of where the nail clippings came from.  Hearsay at best.

You didn't answer my question to you.  "When would nail clippings ever develop cadaver odour?"

How does anyone get nail clippings impregnated with cadaver odour?

Nail clippings are dead keratinized tissue. No cadaver required. The same alpha-keratin protein is also found in the epidermis layer of human skin.

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #194 on: August 11, 2018, 02:01:57 AM »
https://www.oregon.gov/OEM/Documents/ossa_k9_standard.pdf
snipped
Cadaver Evaluation
Search a wilderness area 300 feet by 300 feet (or equivalent
square footage) 6 hot items will be hidden and 3 blanks items
will be hidden for a total of 9 items. K9 must locate 4 hot items
within 60 minutes. In this test the 60 minutes is inclusive of K9
reward and break time. The dog must work through natural
occurring contamination and distractions. Only one false alert
is permitted. Samples (hot items) will be supplied by the
handler being tested. Samples must be able to fit into a 12
inch cylinder tube with a 1 inch diameter. Blank items shall
be used to simulate contamination and distractions and will be
supplied by the OSDC testing officer and/or examiner. These
can include, but are not limited to food, tennis balls, dog toys,
etc. Items will be placed 30 minutes prior to testing under the
direct observation of the testing officer and examiner. Since
samples are difficult to obtain, hair, nail clippings, extracted
teeth, and when the dog has trained with them, synthetic
chemicals such as "pseudocorpse" may be used.