Author Topic: Blood spatter on clothing?  (Read 225 times)

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Offline Caroline

Blood spatter on clothing?
« on: August 05, 2018, 01:35:48 PM »
Many people ask what Jeremy could have done with his blood stained clothes/gloves - while going through the pointless, arduous and mind numbing exchange with gringo on blue I noticed the comments below in Bird's COLP interview.

This is the pit that they burned the mattress and carpets and where Bamber would later burn his parents clothes. How ironic if Bambers blood stained evidence went up  with the rest?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 06:40:36 PM by John »

Offline APRIL

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2018, 01:49:44 PM »
Many people ask what Jeremy could have done with his blood stained clothes/gloves - while going through the pointless, arduous and mind numbing exchange with gringo on blue I noticed the comments below in Bird's COLP interview.

This is the pit that they burned the mattress and carpets and where Bamber would later burn his parents clothes. How ironic if Bambers blood stained evidence went up  with the rest?

And who was there to have questioned it? It's a standard part of farm life. I've heard of hiding something in plain sight. If it's what you suggest it rather takes it to a new level.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 06:40:51 PM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2018, 07:12:58 PM »
Many people ask what Jeremy could have done with his blood stained clothes/gloves - while going through the pointless, arduous and mind numbing exchange with gringo on blue I noticed the comments below in Bird's COLP interview.

This is the pit that they burned the mattress and carpets and where Bamber would later burn his parents clothes. How ironic if Bambers blood stained evidence went up  with the rest?

There's no evidence the victims' gsw's and non-gsw's would result in the perp's person/clothing sustaining blood spatters.  This is supported by all the forensic literature.

Dr Vanezis could not find anything to contradict from the murder/suicide theory.  As the pathologist he was obviously aware of the nature of the victims injuries.  At no stage has he said had SC been the perp he would have expected to find blood spatter on her clothes/person from victims. 

This is another fallacy along with the fingerprints. 

The only blood stained items destroyed were those that held no forensic evidence eg from twins rooms.  This was initiated by DS Jones.  DC Hammersley confirmed everything of evidential value was removed from NB and June's bed.  Carpet samples were taken from their room too. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 06:41:07 PM by John »
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Caroline

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2018, 07:36:55 PM »
There's no evidence the victims' gsw's and non-gsw's would result in the perp's person/clothing sustaining blood spatters.  This is supported by all the forensic literature.

Dr Vanezis could not find anything to contradict from the murder/suicide theory.  As the pathologist he was obviously aware of the nature of the victims injuries.  At no stage has he said had SC been the perp he would have expected to find blood spatter on her clothes/person from victims. 

This is another fallacy along with the fingerprints. 

The only blood stained items destroyed were those that held no forensic evidence eg from twins rooms.  This was initiated by DS Jones.  DC Hammersley confirmed everything of evidential value was removed from NB and June's bed.  Carpet samples were taken from their room too.

I'm not talking about item destroyed by the police. It was an ide place for Jeremy to rid himself of any blood stained items. He later burned his parents close in the same pit.

I don't agree that there wouldn't be spatter - we've talked about this before. Smashing  melon with a base ball bat. It would go everywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jGXtXcxuV8

Offline Caroline

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2018, 07:48:21 PM »
I'm not talking about item destroyed by the police. It was an ide place for Jeremy to rid himself of any blood stained items. He later burned his parents close in the same pit.

I don't agree that there wouldn't be spatter - we've talked about this before. Try smashing  melon with a base ball bat. It would go everywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jGXtXcxuV8

You can believe what you like but from a forensic perspective there's no evidence the perp's clothes/person would result in spatter from the victims' injuries: gsw and non-gsw.  Hence this didn't feature at trial/appeals.  Much of what is discussed online has no place in the real world.

Dr Vanezis made clear he found nothing to detract from the murder/suicide theory.  He obviously observed the victims during pm and some time later had before him the same soc images we see.  There was plenty of opportunity for himto say 'Hang about had SC been the perp she'd have been covered in blood.  He didn't because there's no forensic reason why victims' injuries sustained would generate spatter.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 09:59:06 PM by Holly Goodhead »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2018, 10:01:54 PM »
I'm not talking about item destroyed by the police. It was an ide place for Jeremy to rid himself of any blood stained items. He later burned his parents close in the same pit.

I don't agree that there wouldn't be spatter - we've talked about this before. Smashing  melon with a base ball bat. It would go everywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jGXtXcxuV8

You can believe what you like but from a forensic perspective there's no evidence the perp's clothes/person would result in spatter from the victims' injuries: gsw and non-gsw.  Hence this didn't feature at trial/appeals.  Much of what is discussed online has no place in the real world.

Dr Vanezis made clear he found nothing to detract from the murder/suicide theory.  He obviously observed the victims during pm and some time later had before him the same soc images we see.  There was plenty of opportunity for himto say 'Hang about had SC been the perp she'd have been covered in blood.  He didn't because there's no forensic reason why victims' injuries sustained would generate spatter.
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Caroline

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2018, 11:42:26 PM »
You can believe what you like but from a forensic perspective there's no evidence the perp's clothes/person would result in spatter from the victims' injuries: gsw and non-gsw.  Hence this didn't feature at trial/appeals.  Much of what is discussed online has no place in the real world.

Dr Vanezis made clear he found nothing to detract from the murder/suicide theory.  He obviously observed the victims during pm and some time later had before him the same soc images we see.  There was plenty of opportunity for himto say 'Hang about had SC been the perp she'd have been covered in blood.  He didn't because there's no forensic reason why victims' injuries sustained would generate spatter.

That's not true, he did voice concerns

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 08:59:58 AM »
That's not true, he did voice concerns

There's nothing in his trial testimony that implicates JB.

He refers to cleanliness but nothing about blood spatter. 

Yes the rifle/bible look odd because they were moved by person(s) whilst JB was stood outside with EP.  SC was moved so by definition those items either on her person or in close proximity moved too in relation to her found position.   

I've no idea why he would have expected blood on her legs and the top of her feet when by his own admission he thought it unlikely she walked around . 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Caroline

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 12:36:54 PM »
There's nothing in his trial testimony that implicates JB.

He refers to cleanliness but nothing about blood spatter. 

Yes the rifle/bible look odd because they were moved by person(s) whilst JB was stood outside with EP.  SC was moved so by definition those items either on her person or in close proximity moved too in relation to her found position.   

I've no idea why he would have expected blood on her legs and the top of her feet when by his own admission he thought it unlikely she walked around .

He doesn't mention the term specifically but he talks about how clean she is over-all and being covered in spatter comes under the banner of cleanliness.

She must have walked around if she killed everyone.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 01:27:22 PM »
He doesn't mention the term specifically but he talks about how clean she is over-all and being covered in spatter comes under the banner of cleanliness.

She must have walked around if she killed everyone.

Experts appreciate the need to be clear about what it is they're communicating.  He refers, in a report post trial which IMO is significant, about the cleanliness of SC and then talks about lack of blood staining to her legs and top of feet.  Back spatter is back spatter and at no time does he mention such.  By his own admission he found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory during his pm.  He does not mention anything adverse to JB in his pm notes, pm, report dated May '86 or during his trial testimony. 

If SC was responsible why would she specifically sustain blood stains to her legs and tops of her feet from victims?
Spatter from any source travels in the direction of line of fire. 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Caroline

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2018, 01:18:17 PM »
Experts appreciate the need to be clear about what it is they're communicating.  He refers, in a report post trial which IMO is significant, about the cleanliness of SC and then talks about lack of blood staining to her legs and top of feet.  Back spatter is back spatter and at no time does he mention such.  By his own admission he found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory during his pm.  He does not mention anything adverse to JB in his pm notes, pm, report dated May '86 or during his trial testimony. 

If SC was responsible why would she specifically sustain blood stains to her legs and tops of her feet from victims?
Spatter from any source travels in the direction of line of fire.

I'm not saying it is impossible that Sheila would escape being splattered with blood, or that her fingerprints wouldn't be found in abundance on the rifle and her hands revealing a low count of GSR, however, all three and no othe physical evidence is just a stretch too far.  Sometimes it's what isn't found that's important.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2018, 01:58:39 PM »
I'm not saying it is impossible that Sheila would escape being splattered with blood, or that her fingerprints wouldn't be found in abundance on the rifle and her hands revealing a low count of GSR, however, all three and no othe physical evidence is just a stretch too far.  Sometimes it's what isn't found that's important.

All the science underpinning these aspects of the case suggest SC's found state is entirely consistent with her as perp:

The .22 long rifle and sub-sonic ammo wouldn't necessarily produce back spatter capable of reaching the perp.  The blood stains on the rifle don't resemble high impact back spatter.  I understand victims' physiology changes with each subsequent injury lessening the potential for back spatter.   There's no evidence NB's non gsw's caused an abundance of blood.  Had they done they would be all over the place eg ceiling, furniture etc.  It seems blood stains on the kitchen worktop and a tile near the Aga were caused when NB put his blood stained hands out.

Firearms rarely yield fingerprints for the reasons contained in the link I posted the other day.

GSR was useless in this case since whether SC victim or perp she was found in an environment where the rifle had been discharged numerous times and twice over her body.  DC Hammersley soc officer responsible for taking the swabs for GSR testing, was like DC Bird a novice and, made numerous mistakes rendering the test/results meaningless in any event. 
Justice 4 Sheila and Jeremy: victims of poorly arranged 'Baby Scoop Era' adoptions.  Australia has apologised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg time for UK to do the same https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/04/baby-adoption-practices-of-past-demand-inquiry-say-law-firms

Offline Caroline

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2018, 03:23:03 PM »
All the science underpinning these aspects of the case suggest SC's found state is entirely consistent with her as perp:

The .22 long rifle and sub-sonic ammo wouldn't necessarily produce back spatter capable of reaching the perp.  The blood stains on the rifle don't resemble high impact back spatter.  I understand victims' physiology changes with each subsequent injury lessening the potential for back spatter.   There's no evidence NB's non gsw's caused an abundance of blood.  Had they done they would be all over the place eg ceiling, furniture etc.  It seems blood stains on the kitchen worktop and a tile near the Aga were caused when NB put his blood stained hands out.

Firearms rarely yield fingerprints for the reasons contained in the link I posted the other day.

GSR was useless in this case since whether SC victim or perp she was found in an environment where the rifle had been discharged numerous times and twice over her body.  DC Hammersley soc officer responsible for taking the swabs for GSR testing, was like DC Bird a novice and, made numerous mistakes rendering the test/results meaningless in any event.

I agree with that you are saying to a point BUT, I still maintain that it is a stretch too far that all things conspired to leave SC free of physical evidence.

Offline ActualMat

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2018, 11:13:33 PM »
I agree with that you are saying to a point BUT, I still maintain that it is a stretch too far that all things conspired to leave SC free of physical evidence.

Jeremy clothing that night is one of the things that I think JM knows and hasn't said - you and I have both always said she knows a lot more than she let on - speaking of the clothing and what he did with it would implicate her earlier than her confession.

Offline adam

Re: Blood spatter on clothing?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2018, 12:05:44 AM »
Jeremy clothing that night is one of the things that I think JM knows and hasn't said - you and I have both always said she knows a lot more than she let on - speaking of the clothing and what he did with it would implicate her earlier than her confession.

Bamber told her MM committed the massacre. So he couldn't tell her where he left his clothes.

If he told her he committed the massacre himself she would have testified this. Saying where he left his clothes would only be useful if the police could locate them. However a month later they would be long gone.