What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?

[Robittybob1]

correct - just wonder D what you make of this.


The hire car sampling.


In the last post I showed how the existing DNA profile from the car sample could be used along with DNA profiles from McCann family & friends + a others to enhance our understanding of who might have contributed to the DNA profile and thus how likely it is that Maddy was one of those people.

Now I would like to consider what else should have been done in 2007 as soon as the DNA profile was known.

The whole of the carpet from the car boot should have been retained and sealed as evidence. It should have been cut into many (at least 100) small pieces in a grid like fashion ad each piece subjected to DNA extraction and LCN DNA analysis.

In addition random samples should have been taken from all interior areas of the car, seats, carpets, swabs from door handles, windows, floor (e.g.under car boot carpet) etc. Perhaps a further 100 samples. These should also have been subjected to LCN DNA analysis.

What would this sampling & testing reveal?

Had this been done several things might have been revealed including:-

1. Was it possible to get DNA profiles from any other parts of the vehicle?

2. Were the 15 (or more or less) Maddy markers present anywhere else in the vehicle?

3. Were there parts of the vehicle that gave single person DNA profiles? (I am aware of the Gerry McCann profile from the key fob I'm talking about the car itself.

4. Were the 15 Maddy markers present in other pieces of carpet from the boot?

5. Were the 22 other markers from the car boot present in any other samples?

6. Were there samples that included markers not found among the 37 in the car boot sample?

7. Was there an area of the car boot carpet that gave significantly poor or zero DNA results?

What might any or these results indicate or prove?
1. If yes then these profiles might be used to show how the 15 Maddy markers could have come together in the single sample from the boot.
2. If yes then the pattern of profiles seen would show whether the 15 Maddy markers were present in only one or a few areas of the car or were widespread. If they were present only in one area that would indicate her body could have been placed in the boot at some point. If widespread the chances are that these markers are coming from the DNA of others.

3. Any single person profiles would identify people who had definitely been in the vehicle (or their DNA transferred there. Clearly a single person profile that matched Maddy's would be significant, but others could also be used in a subtraction analysis on other samples.

4. If yes this would identify an area (or areas) that had Maddy's markers. The size and shape of any such areas would be very informative. e.g. a few drips spread out, a single small area consistent with a pool of liquid soaking into the carpet, a ring with a blank area in the center consistent with cleaning of a spill or leak etc

5. The presence of these other 22 markers in other samples, especially any single ID samples would permit subtraction analysis on the boot sample

6. This would show whether the car boot sample contained all the markers present in the car or not. Creating a complete picture of the amount of DNA contamination in the car.

7. This would indicate an area that had been specifically cleaned shortly before the car was seized as evidence.


Why weren't these things done?

I am at a complete loss to explain why these things or at least some of them were not done. The case was huge worldwide news at the time. The McCann's were being suspected of disposing of Maddy's body. The evidence from the single sample in the car boot suggested that could be the case but was inconclusive. Here was a great opportunity to either clear the McCann's or gather evidence that would help to prove they did dispose of Maddy's body. Why did no one.... NOT EVEN THE McCANN's themselves..... insist that this car was examined thoroughly and every scrap of evidence extracted?

http://my-mccann-thoughts.blogspot.com/

Most remarkable idea presented so far.

it is possible that everyone who had ever entered that car since it manufacture left DNA in it.  I'm just wondering if there is a way of sorting out 30 different DNA profiles mixed up in a random pattern.

[Mr Gray]

Most remarkable idea presented so far.

it is possible that everyone who had ever entered that car since it manufacture left DNA in it.  I'm just wondering if there is a way of sorting out 30 different DNA profiles mixed up in a random pattern.

I think it's, a pretty poor idea...

You go to all that trouble to discover if Maddie's, DNA was in the car... You may or may not be, able to prove it.... As her family had been in the car.. Probably not.

If Maddie's DNA was found it would prove nothing as it could be the result of transfer..

If it wasn't found it would prove nothing... In the Gilroy case none of the victims DNA was found in the boot

[Brietta]

I think it's, a pretty poor idea...

You go to all that trouble to discover if Maddie's, DNA was in the car... You may or may not be, able to prove it.... As her family had been in the car.. Probably not.

If Maddie's DNA was found it would prove nothing as it could be the result of transfer..

If it wasn't found it would prove nothing... In the Gilroy case none of the victims DNA was found in the boot

If anyone should have been hanging on to the hire car for evidence it should have been the Policia Judiciaria in my opinion.

Another thought to ponder is that of all the vehicles present in the garage ... the McCann hire car was the only one alerted to.
Something along the lines of there not being anywhere in Luz other than the McCann apartment which caused the dogs to alert.
Had there been no evidence as to what triggered the alerts - as in the bedroom at 5A - there would now be a raft of conspiracy theory doing the rounds just as there is about 5A.

As it is, it is known why the dog alerted in the hire car because it was demonstrated that there was physical evidence present as a cause.
It is also known that there was absolutely no evidence connected to the hire car to support the police theory.

Yet the iconic image above still lives on in the internet to demonstrate the spurious case still being promoted and based not any longer on a misunderstanding of evidence but an absolute distortion of it.

I don't think one has to look very far for the truth of the lie ... and in my opinion, nothing has been twisted and lied about more than the dog alerts.

[Robittybob1]

If anyone should have been hanging on to the hire car for evidence it should have been the Policia Judiciaria in my opinion.

Another thought to ponder is that of all the vehicles present in the garage ... the McCann hire car was the only one alerted to.
Something along the lines of there not being anywhere in Luz other than the McCann apartment which caused the dogs to alert.
Had there been no evidence as to what triggered the alerts - as in the bedroom at 5A - there would now be a raft of conspiracy theory doing the rounds just as there is about 5A.

As it is, it is known why the dog alerted in the hire car because it was demonstrated that there was physical evidence present as a cause.
It is also known that there was absolutely no evidence connected to the hire car to support the police theory.

Yet the iconic image above still lives on in the internet to demonstrate the spurious case still being promoted and based not any longer on a misunderstanding of evidence but an absolute distortion of it.

I don't think one has to look very far for the truth of the lie ... and in my opinion, nothing has been twisted and lied about more than the dog alerts.

I don't understand your logic Brietta.

[Brietta]

I don't understand your logic Brietta.

That a real big deal continues to be made out of the fact that out of everywhere checked by the cadaver dog the only place alerted to was a location associated with the McCann family.
Out of all the cars set out for inspection in the underground car park ... the only alert by the cadaver dog was to the McCann hire vehicle.
It proved that the alerts in the vehicle were positive although not to cadaver and not to Madeleine ... although some prefer to ignore that.
Whereas the alert in the bedroom was a false positive because it could not be confirmed.

[slartibartfast]

That a real big deal continues to be made out of the fact that out of everywhere checked by the cadaver dog the only place alerted to was a location associated with the McCann family.
Out of all the cars set out for inspection in the underground car park ... the only alert by the cadaver dog was to the McCann hire vehicle.
It proved that the alerts in the vehicle were positive although not to cadaver and not to Madeleine ... although some prefer to ignore that.
Whereas the alert in the bedroom was a false positive because it could not be confirmed.

Not confirmed does not equal false positive.

[Mr Gray]

Not confirmed does not equal false positive.

It's impossible  to prove a false positive which makes any claims Re false positives meaningless

[Brietta]

Not confirmed does not equal false positive.

According to the criteria laid out by Martin Grime it was a false positive.  He barked ... but there was no evidence why he barked.

[slartibartfast]

It's impossible  to prove a false positive which makes any claims Re false positives meaningless

Not so, you could do it in a controlled environment.

[Mr Gray]

Not so, you could do it in a controlled environment.

I dint see that possible

[Brietta]

Not so, you could do it in a controlled environment.

An environment in which it is known exactly why the dog is alerting?
Whether the dog has got it right or whether the dog has got it wrong because the appropriate training material is in place or not as the case may be?

It is not known why Eddie was alerting because it was not a training exercise ... it was for real ... and Martin Grime's repeated assessment covers it.
It has no evidential value without provenance.

[Robittybob1]

According to the criteria laid out by Martin Grime it was a false positive.  He barked ... but there was no evidence why he barked.

It could be a false positive, or a positive.  Finding evidence to confirm it is a different matter.

[barrier]

It could be a false positive, or a positive.  Finding evidence to confirm it is a different matter.

With each passing day adding to the total already passed, that will never be found imo.

[pathfinder73]

According to the criteria laid out by Martin Grime it was a false positive.  He barked ... but there was no evidence why he barked.

Is is not a false positive! Have you seen Madeline lately? Eddie alerts to cadaver scent and OG were still looking for a body in PDL 7 years after the disappearance.

[Robittybob1]

With each passing day adding to the total already passed, that will never be found imo.

Dave Edgar says "somebody knows".  So don't give up yet.