Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates

[John]

Jixy, I have never claimed to have all the answers.  I only wish I did !!  On the contrary, I just have a lot of questions.

And, I have, on more on one occasion, admitted that I could be wrong.


So, perhaps you and other posters , who believe in VT's guilt, could answer one of these questions for me:

Where do you think VT killed Joanna?  I ask this because, had he killed her in her flat, as he claimed, he would have left DNA and fingerprint evidence there.  Had this been the case, I am sure we would have heard about it, as it would have formed good prosecution evidence at the trial.  There has never been any mention of VT's DNA in her flat, or of Joanna's DNA in his.

Had he killed her in his car (or rather, Tanja's car), there would have been DNA all over the car, not one teeny weeny blood spot in the boot, which yielded somewhat inconclusive evidence.

Had he killed her outside the flats, this would have caused a disturbance (and, quite honestly, would anyone be stupid enough to kill his next door neighbour right outside the door?).  Chris Jefferies, who lived upstairs, and who was in that night, and who didn't own a TV to block out the noise, surely would have heard something, gone to investigate, and called the police.  He was, after all, a conscientious  Neighbourhood Watch enthusiast.

Any ideas???

The accepted version is that he killed her in her flat after attempting to kiss her.

He might very well have left DNA evidence in the flat, unfortunately the forensics team appear to not have recovered any.

[mrswah]

Thanks Mercury and John.

You see, this is one of the things I cannot get my head around.  Without forensic evidence from the flat, nobody can prove he killed her there, as (as far as I am aware), nobody saw VT enter Jo's flat, nobody saw them together that night, and nothing belonging to VT was found in Jo's flat. They only have VT's confession to rely on, and surely they would need to back this up with other evidence.

We do not know for sure that Jo was ever put into VT's cycle bag.  If Tanja had been called as a witness, she might have been able to tell the court whether or not VT owned a cycle bag, and whether this was missing.

And, there was that front door!  VT apparently aroused suspicion in the police officer who interviewed him in Holland, because he asked questions regarding why the front door had been removed. Either he was merely interested in how the forensic team do their investigations (so am I, for that matter), or he was afraid of his DNA being found on that door (the official line).  Nobody in court actually said whether or not there was any forensic evidence leading to him on that door!

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And I,m puzzled as to how the shower area is covered in forensic powder, yet the sink is clean and tiles behind.

The oven which tabak turned off is also void of forensic powder.

The back of the door had litte to know finger print powder upon it.

Looking at the door it look, it has two locks, was it every determined as to which locks were locked?

The lock catchment is a different colour to the Brass yale lock,

in the sitting room one of the settee covers have been removed, why not remove them all??

But my overwhelming concern, is why he would ever, need to move her at all.....

Two complete strangers, he wasnt seen entering or leaving the flat, hes gone into it more than once, he has to tidy it up...

The more actions he does in the flat, the more chance of leaving evidence of himself behind.

And why would you add to that evidence by placing her in your own flat, only then to worry, i better not leave evidence in tanja car, let me get the bicycle bag!!!

The twoing and froing between flats and car take time, a dead body is heavy, people struggle to move dead people.

Thats why you have either, the person is left at the original crime scene or the body dismemebered or hidden in the place where they died.Two people move the body.

Victims are often walked to the scene where they are found.

The only reason to move someone would be to give the impression that they left somewhere, of there own accord and it would have to benefit the perpetrator to do so.

Tabak was aware that Tanja would be home that evening, they spent the weekend together.

He would have been able to have a better alibi with her left in the flat, having gone round home to use his computer,( time stamps) till he went to Asda.

If she was dead within 5/10 mins of returning home, who would know whom had entered the flat?
( He's described in court as being very calculated.)

Again to move her and return more than once to the flat, presents a risk of being seen.

To return to the flat to take a pizza and a sock and tidy up, turn oven off and Tv off but leave behind the opened beer..is ludicrous... if the sock was supposed to be the trophy he kept... where is it??

As a so called sexual preditor, wouldnt it of been more prudent of him to take the some underwear,

He's of need of hours to scrub it to make sure he hadnt left any evidence behind.

The prosecution believed he had Joanna in his flat for over an hour before putting her in the boot of his car..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/oct/28/joanna-yeates-case-vincent-tabak

So if shes in his flat for over an hour before he even puts her into the car, what time was that.????

Hes in Asda in Bedminster at what time? he's sent a text at 10.30 to Tanja, there no timestamp on the video in Asda, which is worrying.

Work backwards:

10.30 Asda.

5/10 minute drive to bedminster....10.20

How many minutes to put a body in a car? two attempts.. 5/10 mins ....10.10

Go get his car off the street and park it by his house.. 5 mins..  10.05.

She's in his flat for an 1 hour.... 9.05

You then have 20 mins left for all the events to take place..

If shes arrived home at 8.45 ( as she was in (leaving) asda at 8.40) she would have a few minutes walk home. 4/5 mins, she talked to someone in the street??

She has to enter her flat lock the door,

put her keys away in her bag,

take her boots off ,

hang up her coat,

turn TV on,

Go into kitchen with her shopping, turn the oven on,

Open the beer ,have a drink.

wave at Tabak and invite him in.... 

Open the door , let him in, ( How many minutes does it take for all her actions??) 5 minutes??

Go back to kitchen and talk for 10 minutes, (be flirty as Tabak says).. You now have 5 minutes left

THEN!! he attacks her,

she sustained 43 injuries how many minutes would an attack take to cause all those injuries?? Surely with such an attack he's off left alot more of himself behind at the flat (DNA ,fibres, finger prints, etc)

A 20 second attack.. with 43 injuries... not likely.

He then puts her on the bed, (how did her earring end up in the duvet? did he make the bed??) (2mins) he has to carry her from the kitchen down the hall

He goes round to his flat,( 2mins?)

Comes back..( checks she alive 1min to 2 mins??) You've about 0 minutes left at this point to....

Then...

Moves her, from the bedroom,

 through the hallway, through the front doorway ( did he leave it open or did he have to open it again) would you want to risk someone walking through an open door as your committing a crime?

Turns left carries her down the side of the building, turns left again, carries her across the back of the building,past he bedroom window , past his bedroom window puts her down,( is it at this point he opens his own flat door?) lifts her up again and carries her through his flat ..

Put her down, get a bicycle back, and put her in it.

He leaves her in his flat, goes back to her flat, ( he's either left door open or on latch)

He then starts to clear up evidence of him being there... Takes the now infamous pizza,(is the pizza out of the packaging??) He doesn't know she's just bought it.. so say its on its way to the oven...

(So why not take the open bottle of cider?? if hes trying to make it look like shes just left)

 turns off the oven,

picks up the sock ( we know shes strangled with bare hands ... no need to take sock)

Turns off the TV

Picks up coatstand

Then what... does he wipe things down incase he touched something,

Lock the door

walk back round to his flat.

He's going to want to spend as little time as possible back in her flat... (Distance himself )



Also in this time she texted someone whilst she was in her house, her reply to `Peter was "At home on my Tod"..


Quote from Sally Ramage papers:

This is the Defence Counsel, Mr William |Clegg, QC’s opening speech:
“If Jo Yeates had stayed for just one more drink she would be alive today. If Vincent Tabak had
gone to Asda as he had planned that same time, he would not in the dock today. …
She turned on the oven to bake.
She phoned several male friends and told how she was bored.
She texted Samuel Ashcroft:
“Where are you this fine eve?”
His reply was “Home- sorry”.
She then texted Peter: “Where are you?”
Peter replied “On my way to a wedding. Where are you?”
She replied: “At home- on my todd”!
She texted a third male friend.
She has said she was bored and she was looking for company.

Did she rings these people whilst in her flat... all these actions take an amount of time, which makes me question the validity of the prosecutions case.

It's all about the Timeline, the available time Vincent Tabak could possibly have to commit the crime and cover up his tracks.


















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[John]

Tabak had a whole two days available to him in order to cover his tracks and destroy forensic evidence.

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Tabak had a whole two days available to him in order to cover his tracks and destroy forensic evidence.

So if he had a whole two days as you are allowing him, to get rid of evidence and clean up the scene, why wasnt Tanja Morson called to tell the court of his constant disappearing throughout that weekend??

Did he keep her keys in his pocket. to keep going in and out of her flat? If that was the case, he'd of popped the keys down on a table not put them in her rucksack.

The door might of flung open if left on the latch, so he needs the keys with him if your scenario is to work.

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So he cleans up after shes in his flat...

He still doesnt have enough time to :

Moves her, from the bedroom,

 through the hallway, through the front doorway ( did he leave it open or did he have to open it again) would you want to risk someone walking through an open door as your committing a crime?

Turns left carries her down the side of the building, turns left again, carries her across the back of the building,past he bedroom window , past his bedroom window puts her down,( is it at this point he opens his own flat door?) lifts her up again and carries her through his flat ..

This is a heavy dead person we're talking about... Is he not panicking?? Does he take his coat off??

All those actions would take time..

[John]

So if he had a whole two days as you are allowing him, to get rid of evidence and clean up the scene, why wasnt Tanja Morson called to tell the court of his constant disappearing throughout that weekend??

Did he keep her keys in his pocket. to keep going in and out of her flat? If that was the case, he'd of popped the keys down on a table not put them in her rucksack.

The door might of flung open if left on the latch, so he needs the keys with him if your scenario is to work.

I agree, there are many unanswered questions but Joanna's disappearance was not reported until two full days after her murder.  In that time Tabak had lots of opportunity to interfere with the crimescene had he chosen to do so.

His admission of guilt and his attempt to do a deal with prosecutors by admitting to manslaughter instead of murder is the clincher for me.  Crying over spilt milk now would appear to be a veritable lost cause for him.

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I agree, there are many unanswered questions but Joanna's disappearance was not reported until two full days after her murder.  In that time Tabak had lots of opportunity to interfere with the crimescene had he chosen to do so.

His admission of guilt and his attempt to do a deal with prosecutors by admitting to manslaughter instead of murder is the clincher for me.  Crying over spilt milk now would appear to be a veritable lost cause for him.

And also someone else could have had the same opportunity to interfer with a crime scene.

Who informed Tabak that Greg would not be returning home till 8.00pm the Sunday evening??

He would have  to be fully aware of both Joanna and Gregs movements and possible movements for that said weekend!!

He'd have to know that she hadn't invited any guest round to stay, say on the Friday night... The whole of Saturday and Sunday till 8.00pm.

Or surely the alarm of her absence would have been raised sooner.

For a person that doesn't know their neighbour he'd be risking an awful lot to spend a whole weekend destroying evidence..


Just because a person admits guilt of a crime isn't evidence in itself that they have committed said crime...

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shes in his flat for 1 hour, before, he puts her in car boot

Now i'm thinking about prosecutions statement:

That statement in itself suggests that the prosecution knew that Vincent Tabak was in his flat for 1 hour before he goes to the Bedminster Asda.

There must be some digital evidence to place him in his flat for 1 hour before he goes to asda....

They can't just sumise that he was in his flat..

So again I'll say, when does he have the time do do the crime????

[mrswah]

I agree, he had two whole days in which to destroy evidence.

BUT, Tanja was around during those two days, so how did he do it ?

[mrswah]

If the time stamps were removed from the ASDA CCTV, {as I understand was the case}, doesn't anyone think that is VERY suspect???

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If i remember correctly, when he text Tanja, he was under a CCTV... which text is this..

The Asda one?????

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If i remember correctly, when he text Tanja, he was under a CCTV... which text is this..

The Asda one?????

Didn't he go in and out of Asda more than once?

So What time did he drive up to the asda carpark in the first place?

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Page 61 of Sarah ramage paper :

Clegg: Look at timeline again.
No 76. Jo Yeates did not get back to her flat until 8.37 or thereabouts.
Timeline 39- You ultimately went to Asda at approx 10.13 pm

Is Clegg saying he left home at 10:13 or was in Asda at 10:13

Because he doesnt say left your flat at 10:13

So that is left open to interpretation.

[mrswah]

Yes, he texted Tanja while in ASDA, apparently under a CCTV camera, and the prosecution claimed that he had deliberately done this in order to give himself an alibi.

However, Vincent and Tanja were in the habit of texting/phoning each other all the time.

It was also claimed that Vincent went to ASDA in order to get caught on CCTV, in order to give himself an alibi.  He could have gone to a smaller supermarket, which was nearer, and why on earth would he have wanted to drive further afield in bad weather, if not to give himself an alibi??

However, Greg drove all the way to Sheffield in the same bad weather, and nobody questioned that!

Vincent worked as a people flow analyst, meaning that he studied the flow of people around buildings.  Perhaps large supermarkets really were interesting to him, as he claimed!  Perhaps the smaller supermarket didn't stock the brand of beer he liked----who knows???  There is really nothing very suspect about him having gone to the bigger supermarket. 

And, what did he buy in there?  Beer, crisps and rock salt------not bleach, plastic bags, cleaning rags !!!