Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando

[Myster]

Especially the shower room window which Sergeant Stephen Golding found unlocked. The same window that Bamber used when he returned to WHF to collect documents.

I see you're trying to wake the dead with a question on the shower room window lock.  I think the actual lock was probably more like the one we discussed earlier rather than the complicated screwed one in your recent photo, whether re-secured by string, hacksaw blade or whatever.

If we had a high-res picture of it instead of this blurred one, then it might be easier to answer...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg238502#msg238502

My own view is that he left by the kitchen window for two reasons: he told Julie about it, and that in the SoC photo the plastic crockery drainer, liquid soap bottle, etc. weren't in their usual positions according to the housekeeper, as if they'd been rearranged to make it appear as if no-one had exited through that window.  Banging the window shut from outside to lock it is also a reasonable assumption.  Years ago, before I ever studied this case I carried out the same trick when painting some wooden casements from outside, so maybe I'm biased.

[APRIL]

I see you're trying to wake the dead with a question on the shower room window lock.  I think the actual lock was probably more like the one we discussed earlier rather than the complicated screwed one in your recent photo, whether re-secured by string, hacksaw blade or whatever.

If we had a high-res picture of it instead of this blurred one, then it might be easier to answer...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg238502#msg238502

My own view is that he left by the kitchen window for two reasons: he told Julie about it, and that in the SoC photo the plastic crockery drainer, liquid soap bottle, etc. weren't in their usual positions according to the housekeeper, as if they'd been rearranged to make it appear as if no-one had exited through that window.  Banging the window shut from outside to lock it is also a reasonable assumption.  Years ago, before I ever studied this case I carried out the same trick when painting some wooden casements from outside, so maybe I'm biased.

Don't you think that exiting from the bathroom window -which had uncluttered access- might have been easier that climbing onto a draining board, which, if the rest of the kitchen is anything to go by, was likely to have been well covered? Stuff not being in usual positions? Mmm. Well, with Sheila and the children there, the usual routine had probably been turned on it's head. Isn't it also possible that if a conversation of a provocative nature had ensued the previous evening, the usual washing up routine may not have been adhered to?

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't know why you keep dwelling on this. It sounds to me that MF was being flippant and with good reason; 13 years is a long time to work in a particular field and Aldridges question seems to be dismissive of his 13 years experience.

I would hardly think a high profile criminal trial involving 5 deaths was the time and place for flippancy.

The fact MF said he was working in the firearms dept for 13 years does not tell us anything about what he actually did, what his experience involved. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly's favourite motto:  "Never waste an opportunity to take a pop at MF"

I'm not having a pop at MF per se just questioning his credentials to provide credible and reliable expert testimony.

[Caroline]

I see you're trying to wake the dead with a question on the shower room window lock.  I think the actual lock was probably more like the one we discussed earlier rather than the complicated screwed one in your recent photo, whether re-secured by string, hacksaw blade or whatever.

If we had a high-res picture of it instead of this blurred one, then it might be easier to answer...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg238502#msg238502

My own view is that he left by the kitchen window for two reasons: he told Julie about it, and that in the SoC photo the plastic crockery drainer, liquid soap bottle, etc. weren't in their usual positions according to the housekeeper, as if they'd been rearranged to make it appear as if no-one had exited through that window.  Banging the window shut from outside to lock it is also a reasonable assumption.  Years ago, before I ever studied this case I carried out the same trick when painting some wooden casements from outside, so maybe I'm biased.

The screw lock is less complicated not more and works with the description much better. Bamber (by his own admission) used the bathroom window to gain entry to WHF and I'm not sure that he told Julie which window he used? However, Bamber also told Julie that he hired MM so his version isn't really reliable.

[Caroline]

I'm not having a pop at MF per se just questioning his credentials to provide credible and reliable expert testimony.

His credentials were 13 years of experience.

[Caroline]

I would hardly think a high profile criminal trial involving 5 deaths was the time and place for flippancy.

The fact MF said he was working in the firearms dept for 13 years does not tell us anything about what he actually did, what his experience involved.

It may not be the time or place for you, but you're not the one having your credentials questioned.

What do you imagine he did in the FA's dept? He would have carried out the same kind of investigations and he did in the Bamber case. He certainly didn't sweep the floor and make the tea.

[Holly Goodhead]

Especially the shower room window which Sergeant Stephen Golding found unlocked. The same window that Bamber used when he returned to WHF to collect documents.

At 9.15am DCI Jones checked all the windows and other than the dairy window (covered by wire mesh and cobwebs) he found all windows locked and secured.

At 2.30pm Sgt Golding found the catch open on the ground floor window and the kitchen transom window was opened halfway.

[Holly Goodhead]

I see you're trying to wake the dead with a question on the shower room window lock.  I think the actual lock was probably more like the one we discussed earlier rather than the complicated screwed one in your recent photo, whether re-secured by string, hacksaw blade or whatever.

If we had a high-res picture of it instead of this blurred one, then it might be easier to answer...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg238502#msg238502

My own view is that he left by the kitchen window for two reasons: he told Julie about it, and that in the SoC photo the plastic crockery drainer, liquid soap bottle, etc. weren't in their usual positions according to the housekeeper, as if they'd been rearranged to make it appear as if no-one had exited through that window.  Banging the window shut from outside to lock it is also a reasonable assumption.  Years ago, before I ever studied this case I carried out the same trick when painting some wooden casements from outside, so maybe I'm biased.

DCI Ainsley concluded:

"There was no apparent entry to or exit from the house and D.Chief Inspector Jones did in fact examine the inside of all ground floor windows and noted that they were all shut and secured on their latches. The scene was photographed. It seems however that after the inspection of D.Chief Jones some person had partially opened the transom window in the kitchen and also opened the catch on the ground floor bathroom windows. I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened, but following the departure of the Scene of Crime officer, the witness Police Sergeant Golding secured the windows mentioned."

Whoever opened the transom window may well have moved the items around the sink either deliberately to reach up to the window or accidentally knocked things over. 

[Holly Goodhead]

It may not be the time or place for you, but you're not the one having your credentials questioned.

What do you imagine he did in the FA's dept? He would have carried out the same kind of investigations and he did in the Bamber case. He certainly didn't sweep the floor and make the tea.

All other expert witnesses eg Glynis Howard, John Hayward, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight and Mark Webster at 2002 appeal provided the court with info re high level qualifications ie degrees and membership of professional bodies.  MF was the odd one out in this regard.  I don't think he was being flippant.  I think he was under qualified and unfit to provide the court with credible and reliable evidence. 

He didn't carry out the same kind of investigations as he did in the Bamber case.  This case involved the drawback phenomenon which by MF's own admission was complicated and not them fully appreciated.  I can't find a case anywhere in the world, ever, that has hinged on blood in a silencer. 

[Holly Goodhead]

DCI Jones Notebook Re Windows.

[Holly Goodhead]

And why were jurors not taken to WHF to see for themselves how easy, difficult or impossible it would have been for JB to enter and exit leaving the windows secured from within?

[APRIL]

I'm not having a pop at MF per se just questioning his credentials to provide credible and reliable expert testimony.

I wonder would you be having the kind of pop you appear to be if you believed JB was guilty?

[Holly Goodhead]

I wonder would you be having the kind of pop you appear to be if you believed JB was guilty?

It has nothing to do with whether I believe anyone is guilty or not guilty.  It's to do with whether experts are fit for purpose.  Do I support the so-called wet blood theory provided by the Italiam professors Cavalli and Melloni instructed by bogus lawyer and convicted fraudster GDS?  No I don't on the basis I don't trust anything put forward directly or indirectly by GDS. 

[Caroline]

At 9.15am DCI Jones checked all the windows and other than the dairy window (covered by wire mesh and cobwebs) he found all windows locked and secured.

At 2.30pm Sgt Golding found the catch open on the ground floor window and the kitchen transom window was opened halfway.

Exactly, Golding found the shower room window not locked so Jones didn't check properly because there was no reason to unlock the shower room window and yet it was unlocked.