Author Topic: Barry George revisited.  (Read 173146 times)

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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #465 on: April 25, 2019, 04:07:51 PM »
“Mr Keeley, who has recently left the FSS but is still working as a scientist, told the appeal court he had answered all questions put to him as an expert witness in the trial. "I did my best at the time," he said. "I was in the witness box for a long time." Asked by William Clegg QC, for George, if, with hindsight, he might have made it clearer that evidence of the firearms residue was "neutral" and "inconclusive", Mr Keeley said: "If it led to a misunderstanding, with hindsight I say I would have done it differently."

While agreeing the "neutrality" of the evidence was not present "in terms" in his witness statement, he added: "What I wrote there was what I believed. I wasn't led in any way ... In hindsight, if it any way it caused misunderstanding or confusion, of course I would have done it differently. I wasn't aware it would have consequences such as it has had in recent reports." He said it was "unlikely but possible" the particle could have survived in George's pocket for a year
.


Seems to me Mr Keeley’s evidence was clearly contaminated by confirmation bias.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 04:45:12 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #466 on: April 25, 2019, 04:13:00 PM »
I understand the basics of probability.  Forensic Scientist Angela Shaw explained how they (scientists) estimate that 1 in 100 people will inadvertently pick up a single gsr particle.

How did she reach this conclusion? What methods did she use?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #467 on: April 25, 2019, 04:16:29 PM »
“Mr Keeley, who has recently left the FSS but is still working as a scientist, told the appeal court he had answered all questions put to him as an expert witness in the trial. "I did my best at the time," he said. "I was in the witness box for a long time." Asked by William Clegg QC, for George, if, with hindsight, he might have made it clearer that evidence of the firearms residue was "neutral" and "inconclusive", Mr Keeley said: "If it led to a misunderstanding, with hindsight I say I would have done it differently."

While agreeing the "neutrality" of the evidence was not present "in terms" in his witness statement, he added: "What I wrote there was what I believed. I wasn't led in any way ... In hindsight, if it any way it caused misunderstanding or confusion, of course I would have done it differently. I wasn't aware it would have consequences such as it has had in recent reports." He said it was "unlikely but possible" the particle could have survived in George's pocket for a year
.

“I wasn’t led in anyway” this suggests to me he was?!

Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #468 on: April 25, 2019, 04:19:32 PM »
“Mr Keeley, who has recently left the FSS but is still working as a scientist, told the appeal court he had answered all questions put to him as an expert witness in the trial. "I did my best at the time," he said. "I was in the witness box for a long time." Asked by William Clegg QC, for George, if, with hindsight, he might have made it clearer that evidence of the firearms residue was "neutral" and "inconclusive", Mr Keeley said: "If it led to a misunderstanding, with hindsight I say I would have done it differently."

While agreeing the "neutrality" of the evidence was not present "in terms" in his witness statement, he added: "What I wrote there was what I believed. I wasn't led in any way ... In hindsight, if it any way it caused misunderstanding or confusion, of course I would have done it differently. I wasn't aware it would have consequences such as it has had in recent reports." He said it was "unlikely but possible" the particle could have survived in George's pocket for a year
.


Seems to me Mr Keeley’s evidence was clearly contaminated by his confirmation bias.

“Mr Keeley agreed that, after the trial, he had a conversation with a colleague, Ian Evett, and agreed the residue evidence was "neutral". The court has already heard that FSS colleagues were concerned undue weight had been given to the evidence.

Orlando Pownall QC, for the crown, told the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Phillips, Lord Justice Leveson and Mr Justice Simon, that the firearms evidence had been presented to the jury "not as a foundation stone of the crown's case".

There had been also been identification evidence which placed George at least three times in the street on which the murder took place. The residue evidence, he said, was never suggested to be freestanding and conclusive in itself. "There was other evidence in abundance."
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #469 on: April 25, 2019, 04:22:16 PM »
“Mr Keeley agreed that, after the trial, he had a conversation with a colleague, Ian Evett, and agreed the residue evidence was "neutral". The court has already heard that FSS colleagues were concerned undue weight had been given to the evidence.

And this proves to me he was
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #470 on: April 25, 2019, 04:28:03 PM »
And this proves to me he was

And the fact Dr Ian Evett gave evidence during the retrial cements by belief
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #471 on: April 25, 2019, 04:29:58 PM »
“He stood by his evidence. But he later complained to Forensic Science Service colleague Dr Ian Evett that he was "never asked the right questions".
Remarkably, the FSS did not tell either the prosecution or defence what their view of the evidence was. Instead, doubts only emerged after the CCRC launched its own investigation in 2004. Our source said: "Dr Keeley answered questions truthfully and some of his concerns were addressed by the defence. So the FSS didn't see the point in coming forward."
But another insider familiar with the CCRC report said: "It's scandalous that the FSS didn't come forward with their concerns at the time of the first appeal
.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/this-firearms-expert-is-utterly-meticulous-he-had-serious-484576



What’s scandalous to me is it’s clear the experts who gave evidence in relation to GSR at Barry George’s appeal were totally bias and any objectively appears to have gone out of the window. Same applies to the CCRC in this instance.

My opinions. My observations.

We know the CCRC make mistakes, the Simon Hall case referral is a prime example.



Referring to the evidence, CCRC chair Professor Graham Zellick said yesterday: "Considerable weight was placed on it at the trial.
"But we've concluded that it can't bear that weight, if it can bear any weight at all.
"I think there's now a good deal of common ground that it simply isn't incriminating. It's of almost no evidential value in the circumstances at all."
The professor said three commissioners had "deliberated on every point" of the complex investigation, reading thousands of pages of documentation.
He said: "Our role is limited to assessing whether there's a real possibility that the Court of Appeal may quash the conviction in the light of new evidence or argument, and we've concluded that that is so.
"It's now a matter for the Appeal Court to judge whether the new evidence or argument renders the conviction unsafe, in which case it will be quashed. If it is, then the court must decide whether there should be a new trial."
Police believe they have still got the right man and have appointed Commander Dave Johnson, head of Scotland Yard's Homicide Team, to lead their response.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 04:39:37 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #472 on: April 25, 2019, 04:46:00 PM »
“Mr Keeley, who has recently left the FSS but is still working as a scientist, told the appeal court he had answered all questions put to him as an expert witness in the trial. "I did my best at the time," he said. "I was in the witness box for a long time." Asked by William Clegg QC, for George, if, with hindsight, he might have made it clearer that evidence of the firearms residue was "neutral" and "inconclusive", Mr Keeley said: "If it led to a misunderstanding, with hindsight I say I would have done it differently."

While agreeing the "neutrality" of the evidence was not present "in terms" in his witness statement, he added: "What I wrote there was what I believed. I wasn't led in any way ... In hindsight, if it any way it caused misunderstanding or confusion, of course I would have done it differently. I wasn't aware it would have consequences such as it has had in recent reports." He said it was "unlikely but possible" the particle could have survived in George's pocket for a year
.


Seems to me Mr Keeley’s evidence was clearly contaminated by confirmation bias.

What’s more is the original submissions made to the CCRC referred to paint particles or something or other?

Ergo the whole referral was a fluke as Simon Hall once referred to his case.

The egos of the experts in this case clouded their objectivity imo.

Bayes' theorem
“In probability theory and statistics, Bayes' theorem (alternatively Bayes' law or Bayes' rule) describes the probability of an event, based on prior knowledge of conditions that might be related to the event. ... When applied, the probabilities involved in Bayes' theorem may have different probability interpretations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:23:19 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #473 on: April 25, 2019, 05:08:29 PM »
“He stood by his evidence. But he later complained to Forensic Science Service colleague Dr Ian Evett that he was "never asked the right questions".
Remarkably, the FSS did not tell either the prosecution or defence what their view of the evidence was. Instead, doubts only emerged after the CCRC launched its own investigation in 2004. Our source said: "Dr Keeley answered questions truthfully and some of his concerns were addressed by the defence. So the FSS didn't see the point in coming forward."
But another insider familiar with the CCRC report said: "It's scandalous that the FSS didn't come forward with their concerns at the time of the first appeal
.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/this-firearms-expert-is-utterly-meticulous-he-had-serious-484576



What’s scandalous to me is it’s clear the experts who gave evidence in relation to GSR at Barry George’s appeal were totally bias and any objectively appears to have gone out of the window. Same applies to the CCRC in this instance.

My opinions. My observations.

We know the CCRC make mistakes, the Simon Hall case referral is a prime example.



Referring to the evidence, CCRC chair Professor Graham Zellick said yesterday: "Considerable weight was placed on it at the trial.
"But we've concluded that it can't bear that weight, if it can bear any weight at all.
"I think there's now a good deal of common ground that it simply isn't incriminating
. It's of almost no evidential value in the circumstances at all."
The professor said three commissioners had "deliberated on every point" of the complex investigation, reading thousands of pages of documentation.
He said: "Our role is limited to assessing whether there's a real possibility that the Court of Appeal may quash the conviction in the light of new evidence or argument, and we've concluded that that is so.
"It's now a matter for the Appeal Court to judge whether the new evidence or argument renders the conviction unsafe, in which case it will be quashed. If it is, then the court must decide whether there should be a new trial."
Police believe they have still got the right man and have appointed Commander Dave Johnson, head of Scotland Yard's Homicide Team, to lead their response.


Re GSR - In isolation maybe not but...


As published by John McVicar in the Telegraph:
“In our system where the accused enjoys the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof is on the prosecution, the defence can put the Crown to proof.
This is what William Clegg QC, Mr George’s counsel, did: he tested the Crown’s case but did not put forward any alternative. Mr Clegg said to the Crown: prove your case – the jury decided that the Crown failed that test.
The possibility of delivering a “not proven” verdict is not an option in England and Wales. Mr George was found “not guilty” and is therefore entitled to walk free as an innocent man.
However, it is important to note that the jury’s verdict in a case such as this may have been equivalent to a “not proven” one.
The verdict is essentially one of not meeting the “beyond reasonable doubt” burden of proof.
Indeed, this is borne out by the judge’s directions and the three questions the jury asked for direction on before acquitting Mr George.
The Crown’s case was, in the words of junior counsel Peter Ratliff, “subtle, but compelling”.
It was predicated on identification and the judge directed the jury that only after they were sure of the identification evidence could they look to the other evidence to support it.
Two witnesses saw the killer leave the scene of the crime but neither identified him as Mr George.
Their descriptions of the killer loosely fitted Mr George, so they did not completely exclude him.
The only witnesses who did identify Mr George were those who saw him hanging around near Jill Dando’s home some hours before she was murdered.
Thus, the Crown’s task was to conflate the identifications of the pre-kill witnesses with the descriptions of the two scene-of-the-crime witnesses.
The Crown did not rely on a Tommy Cooper “just like that” wave of the hand to do this but established a backdrop to the killing.
First, it claimed Miss Dando was not murdered by a Serbian hitman, an ex-boyfriend, a vengeful criminal convicted by her Crimewatch work, an obsessive and jealous fan, a thief, a crazed junkie. She was murdered by a man with an irrational motive that would appear senseless to anyone normal. A fantasist — they said Mr George was a “fantasist”, a believer in crackpot theories.
Second, they suggested the killer was a loner, not a professional killer or criminal but with knowledge of pistols, and had access to amateurish kinds of weapons (converted blank-firers, or reactivated deactivated guns). This, they said, fitted Mr George.
Third, the Crown’s case was that the killer would have had to have some experience in following and observing women without their being aware.
They said Mr George’s hobby was to track, stalk and sometimes attack women in the Fulham area and there was a mass of evidence.
Fourth, as Miss Dando was not followed when driving to her home that morning (conclusively shown by the CCTV from numerous vantage points) and as her visits to her home were unpredictable (she was living at her fiancé’s house) the killer would have had to hang around her home in Gowan Avenue.
The jury appeared to accept from their questions after retirement that Mr George was in Gowan Avenue the Monday morning that she was killed.
There were four witnesses who identified Mr George as being in Gowan Avenue that morning.
The first, Susan Mayes, was rock solid on identifying him at being opposite Miss Dando’s house at 7am.
The jury was directed by the judge to look at her evidence first and only if they believed it to move on to the other witnesses.
The jury came out on their second day of retirement and asked to see the video of her identification of Mr George and to listen to the evidence she gave in the witness box.
They went back to their deliberations and came out, three hours later, and asked the judge to go through the evidence of the descriptions given by the two scene-of-the-crime witnesses.
As their directions were that they must acquit if they were not sure about Miss Mayes identifying Mr George, this must have meant they had agreed he was in Gowan Avenue that morning.
They then came out at noon on Friday with a question about the other three witnesses who made “partial identifications” of Mr George.
The judge directed that they could use video evidence of the partial identifications as support for Susan Mayes’s identification but they could “not convert two or more partial identifications into a positive identification”. An hour later they reached their verdict.
Crown counsel Jonathon Laidlaw’s last comment in his closing speech was “We suggest that this is no coincidence.” If they did think about the coincidences, the jury clearly did not think they defied common sense.
On the other hand, they may not have seen the subtlety of the Crown’s case. Who knows, except them?
But it doesn’t matter, the die is cast and cannot be un-cast.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2491147/Analysis-Twists-and-turns-that-enabled-Barry-George-to-walk-free.html
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:34:22 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #474 on: April 25, 2019, 05:49:54 PM »
Given the publicity surrounding the 20th anniversary it might be an idea to have a thread 'The unsolved murder of Jill Dando' or something similar rather than the emphasis on Barry George?  I would prefer to look at all theories..

Barry George supporters rely on some sort of conspiracy in order to deflect attention.

No professional assassin would choose somewhere like Gowan Avenue (Which is a straight road) with no way of getting out without being seen.
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 06:01:11 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #476 on: April 25, 2019, 06:22:17 PM »
Another factor is when GSR particles are found.  In the case of BG the particle was found a year later.  As forensic scientist Angela Shaw said in the recent douc the particle found in BG's coat pocket a year later could not link him to the shooting. She estimates 1 in a 100 people will inadvertently pick up a particle.

She omitted to say -

“The Criminal Case Review Commission (CCRC) in 2006 requested a review of the oral and written evidence in relation to the significance of the single particle and the way in which the case would have been reported today. While employed at the FSS I carried out this review in conjunction with a colleague. We concluded that the GSR evidence was inconclusive; it was no more likely that the particle had originated from the shooting of Ms Dando than it had come from another source. This was based on the information that the coat in which the particle had been found was not recovered until a year after the shooting. The CCRC referred the case to the Court of Appeal stating that the GSR particle that was given great significance by the Prosecution at the trial in 2001 was, in reality of no probative value. The Appeal Court ruled that it was impossible to know what weight, if any, the jury attached to the particle and as such the verdict was ruled unsafe and the conviction quashed. In a retrial in 2008 at the Central Criminal Court the GSR evidence was ruled inadmissible prior to the commencement of the trial. Mr George was acquitted.

This case has generated much discussion among GSR experts around the world and in the main in the UK no significance is placed on the finding of a single particle. The decision on whether or not to admit single GSR particles as evidence rests with the court. In this case both arguments were put before the court but in some jurisdictions single particles are reported as supporting the contention that a suspect has either handled or fired a gun. Additionally in these jurisdictions prosecution experts offer no interpretation to assist the court or jury and do not include an assessment of the possibility of contamination
http://forensicfirearmsconsultancy.com/gunshot-residue-evidence-loose-canon/
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 06:38:35 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #477 on: April 25, 2019, 07:17:27 PM »
Another factor is when GSR particles are found.  In the case of BG the particle was found a year later.  As forensic scientist Angela Shaw said in the recent douc the particle found in BG's coat pocket a year later could not link him to the shooting.  She estimates 1 in a 100 people will inadvertently pick up a particle.

She also omits to highlight the quite apparent controversy surrounding the single particle of GSR in the Barry George case and the subsequent empirical research carried out by the scientific community.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 09:11:11 AM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #478 on: April 25, 2019, 07:48:45 PM »
Given the publicity surrounding the 20th anniversary

Barry George was not in the frame 20 years ago!

I find it telling that he and his sister Michelle Diskin Bates have chosen to give interviews at this time in a blatant attempt to draw attention to them and away from the Anniversary date.   *&^^&
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #479 on: April 25, 2019, 07:54:58 PM »
.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned on the thread but there's another docu this evening on ITV at 9pm.

Which, according to reviews, is a re hash of previous conspiracy theories.
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation