Goncalo Amaral.

[John]

I keep coming back to this crime, a bodyless conviction in Germany which the prosecutors got so horribly wrong.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/20/rudolf-rupp-farmer-family-trial

In the absence of corroborating forensics, the intricate details of Joana's alleged murder by Joao and subsequent assistance by Leonor were never truly established.

There was plenty of forensics in the Cipriano house, add witness statements and the girls whereabouts really weren't much of a mystery.

This has been gone over multiple times, do people really believe that John Cipriano actually admitted to murder and even went through with a reconstruction if all he had done wrong was to sell his niece to a trafficker?  He is now out on parole and hasn't once denied what he did.

Same goes for Leonor who is also out on parole.  She originally confess d to killing her daughter but later relented and admitted that she had done so in an attempt to protect her brother John.  She knew that John would be sent back to prison since he already had a conviction for attempted murder hanging over him.

[misty]

There was plenty of forensics in the Cipriano house, add witness statements and the girls whereabouts really weren't much of a mystery.

This has been gone over multiple times, do people really believe that John Cipriano actually admitted to murder and even went through with a reconstruction if all he had done wrong was to sell his niece to a trafficker?  He is now out on parole and hasn't once denied what he did.

You have to question whether it was more beneficial to him to confess to a murder he didn't commit than admit  he'd sold Joana to traffickers but the deal went wrong. It's possible there were individuals who didn't want trafficking investigated.

[John]

You have to question whether it was more beneficial to him to confess to a murder he didn't commit than admit  he'd sold Joana to traffickers but the deal went wrong. It's possible there were individuals who didn't want trafficking investigated.

Very true but if he had done such a deal there would have been a payment trail but none exists. Similarly, the investigation into a potential abduction has come to nothing, the claims were all dead ends.

Only John Cipriano knows what really happened to Joana's remains, neither of his various versions have ever been proven one way or another. In the beginning he claimed she was buried in a field, then she was fed to the pigs and later still she was buried up in the hills. If the latter was true he would have been able to find the grave but that too never happened, Joana remains missing.

In my view Amaral did a reasonable job in bringing the Ciprianos to justice, unfortunately the wrong sibling ended up with the greater sentence.

[misty]

Very true but if he had done such a deal there would have been a payment trail but none exists. Similarly, the investigation into a potential abduction has come to nothing, the claims were all dead ends.

Only John Cipriano knows what really happened to Joana's remains, neither of his various versions have ever been proven one way or another. In the beginning he claimed she was buried in a field, then she was fed to the pigs and later still she was buried up in the hills. If the latter was true he would have been able to find the grave but that too never happened, Joana remains missing.

In my view Amaral did a reasonable job in bringing the Ciprianos to justice, unfortunately the wrong sibling ended up with the greater sentence.

There would be no payment trail if the traffickers had reneged on the deal and taken Joana away by force. What would his options have been?
As I said previously, very little attempt was made to verify the circumstances of the alleged murder and body disposal. When reconstitutions are carried out, generally the police "make suggestions" to an arguido during the exercise as to what happened. To even begin to entertain the idea that Joana's dismembered body was stored in a small freezer when the police had been called to the property is bizarre imo.
 In Portugal, it always seems to be the woman's fault.

[sadie]

Well John Cipriano confessed to killing Joana and Leonor agreed that she assisted him after the fact and covered up for him. I don't think we need much more to know what occurred.

Joao did not exhibit the strength that Leonor did. 
As a drug addict, imo, he could be bought by police offering to give him earlier withdrawn drugs.

Anything would be preferable to Leonor than being classified by the world at large as the murderer of her own daughter, and after the terrible torturing that she had suffered

Yes I remember reading the shock horror of hearing of this woman in PT who we were told had fed her daughter to the pigs.  Yes the whole western world knew about it.   What a terrible sin to paint a mother in such  way with no sound indicators at all.

What an evil imagination Amaral has, but let's not forget that Cristovao also a PJ (?Chief) inspector was part of this.

[sadie]

There was plenty of forensics in the Cipriano house, add witness statements and the girls whereabouts really weren't much of a mystery.

This has been gone over multiple times, do people really believe that John Cipriano actually admitted to murder and even went through with a reconstruction if all he had done wrong was to sell his niece to a trafficker?  He is now out on parole and hasn't once denied what he did.

Same goes for Leonor who is also out on parole.  She originally confess d to killing her daughter but later relented and admitted that she had done so in an attempt to protect her brother John.  She knew that John would be sent back to prison since he already had a conviction for attempted murder hanging over him.

John.  You were a polceman.

Please can you tell us what the forensics were.   I am talking about scientifically proven forensics.

I do remember lots of smear tactics being done, same as against The Mccanns

[sadie]

Very true but if he had done such a deal there would have been a payment trail but none exists. Similarly, the investigation into a potential abduction has come to nothing, the claims were all dead ends.

Only John Cipriano knows what really happened to Joana's remains, neither of his various versions have ever been proven one way or another. In the beginning he claimed she was buried in a field, then she was fed to the pigs and later still she was buried up in the hills. If the latter was true he would have been able to find the grave but that too never happened, Joana remains missing.

In my view Amaral did a reasonable job in bringing the Ciprianos to justice, unfortunately the wrong sibling ended up with the greater sentence.

Payment trail?  John, we are not talking CRIMINAL BIG business here.

IF, and I don't believe Joana was sold.  IF she was sold  Then a couple of hundred pounds would be big money to someone like Joao.  No payment trail for such a piddling amount.  And think of the drugs that would by

I used to talk to someone from Portugal who worked in an hospital.  He was mature and on an adult salary and he earned absolute peanuts.   I cant remember how little it was but I tremember wondering how he could exist on such a low income.  No adult in the UK would have worked for double the amount.

Almost certainly IMO Joana was kidnapped.  If she was, then Joao was unable to say where she was.  Joao, being we are told, of somewhat limited intellect would probably try and defuse the situation when demands were made of him to tell the PJ where she was.   Maybe he feared a roughing up - or - Maybe he was offered his fix ?

Dunno!  But I can't help wondering

[Venturi Swirl]

There was plenty of forensics in the Cipriano house, add witness statements and the girls whereabouts really weren't much of a mystery.

This has been gone over multiple times, do people really believe that John Cipriano actually admitted to murder and even went through with a reconstruction if all he had done wrong was to sell his niece to a trafficker?  He is now out on parole and hasn't once denied what he did.

Same goes for Leonor who is also out on parole.  She originally confess d to killing her daughter but later relented and admitted that she had done so in an attempt to protect her brother John.  She knew that John would be sent back to prison since he already had a conviction for attempted murder hanging over him.

There were no forensics John, none anyway which linked to Joana as far as I recall, no dna and given that she was supposed to have been carved up and fed to the pigs the place should have been awash with blood and bits for any self respecting police force to discover. 

[Wonderfulspam]

Well John Cipriano confessed to killing Joana and Leonor agreed that she assisted him after the fact and covered up for him. I don't think we need much more to know what occurred.

I wonder why the innocent mother hasn't set up a Find Joana Facebook page, considering her child definitely wasn't murdered?

I wonder why the innocent uncle hasn't done so either?

Oh well, probably not worth giving too much thought.

[The General]

I wonder why the innocent mother hasn't set up a Find Joana Facebook page, considering her child definitely wasn't murdered?

I wonder why the innocent uncle hasn't done so either?

Oh well, probably not worth giving too much thought.

I think if one of these fluff 'documentaries' ever went and interviewed him he'd probably still maintain he did it and Leonor was in on it.

[Brietta]

I wonder why the innocent mother hasn't set up a Find Joana Facebook page, considering her child definitely wasn't murdered?

I wonder why the innocent uncle hasn't done so either?

Oh well, probably not worth giving too much thought.

If Kate had been beaten black and blue and successfully fitted up for her daughter's murder as Leonor was for hers NO-ONE WOULD BE LOOKING FOR MADELEINE either.

As it is a piece of filth has been removed from the streets of Europe for the time being.  Who is coincidentally the prime suspect in Madeleine's case and who - without Kate's efforts on her behalf would have been on the prowl again when he'd done his time for drugs.

On the other hand - had Amaral and Cristovao concentrated on the job in hand in 2004 and 2007 instead of penning their penny dreadfuls - it is possible that no-one would have heard of Joanna.

[Venturi Swirl]

I think if one of these fluff 'documentaries' ever went and interviewed him he'd probably still maintain he did it and Leonor was in on it.

What did he maintain he did though?  His account of what he did varied wildly.

[The General]

What did he maintain he did though?  His account of what he did varied wildly.

Not 'wildly' enough, clearly, your words, not mine.

[Venturi Swirl]

Not 'wildly' enough, clearly, your words, not mine.

I don't understand your point.  Wildly differing accounts of a crime confessed to is often an indicator that the confessor is making it up.

[Venturi Swirl]

Incidentally if setting up a Facebook account to find your missing child is an indicator of innocence what does that make the McCanns?  You sceptics can't have it both ways, really.