Author Topic: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.  (Read 46539 times)

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Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2017, 08:16:27 PM »
DB claimed that Stephen probably borrowed his opera gloves, as he was sometimes inclined to do with other clothes!

Also odd are three bruises on DB's forehead, the graze on his kneecap which a doctor noted soon after the murders, and scratch marks as if from fingernails on his right shoulder area noticed by a prison officer when he was strip-searched after being taken into custody. On the Wednesday after the murders, a girlfriend who visited him saw some scratches on his chest when they were discussing what had happened in those 20 lost minutes. DB told her that he didn't know how he had got them and removed his shirt to show her - all this witnessed at the second trial in 2009.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2017, 02:40:05 PM »
DB claimed that Stephen probably borrowed his opera gloves, as he was sometimes inclined to do with other clothes!

Also odd are three bruises on DB's forehead, the graze on his kneecap which a doctor noted soon after the murders, and scratch marks as if from fingernails on his right shoulder area noticed by a prison officer when he was strip-searched after being taken into custody. On the Wednesday after the murders, a girlfriend who visited him saw some scratches on his chest when they were discussing what had happened in those 20 lost minutes. DB told her that he didn't know how he had got them and removed his shirt to show her - all this witnessed at the second trial in 2009.

Did DB say SB was in the habit of borrowing clothes or items in general?  I thought it was the latter.  I can think of a reason a 14 year old boy might borrow a pair of white opera gloves: a white opera gloved hand might make a refreshing change from an ungloved hand!  Apologies if this sounds inappropriate but we're all adults and imo I think this is a distinct possibility.  This might also account for the blood staining and location found.  SB was 14 yoa and DB 22 yoa so the gloves were probably a loose fit on SB and may have come off during the fight.  Alterantively they may have been in or on the bed and became blood stained from SB's gsw's to his hand and head.   

Why would DB leave the blood stained gloves in SB's bedroom?  Why not hide them or put them in the washing machine with the rest of the washing eg the green jumper? 

DB apparently passed out shortly after he discovered his family dead/murdered and attributed the bruises and marks to a collision with furniture.  Dr Pryde who examined DB at around 11pm didn't observe any scratches to his chest.  These marks were supposedly observed days later by a prison officer.

We see the same thing in JB's case where AP claims he observed small marks on JB's hands and yet the CoA  refuted this claim.  Even AE observed on her record cards JB's hands and arms were free from any marks.  EP inspected JB's hands at a much later date using a special light and found no marks.  And yet SC's unexplained graze to her abdomen is written off as irrelevant. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2017, 03:04:43 PM »
Have you listened to all ten of Martin van Beyens podcasts, John?  I know you don't have much time, with running the show and other commitments, but they're a well-reasoned account of why he thinks Robin Bain did not shoot his family and then himself.

It's easier to download them all first, then parts can be skipped, forwarded and returned to, as needed...

http://stuff.libsyn.com/

Some excellent sharp crime scene photos on the stuff site as well, such as the one below showing the entrance to David Bain's bedroom. When DB came home from his morning paper round, he must have hung up his yellow plastic delivery bag behind the door... but surely he couldn't have missed seeing the open wardrobe door where his rifle was kept, I believe, and the rifle trigger lock with key inserted, an empty red box of "Whisper" .22 ammo and a few unused rounds in front of the opened wardrobe drawer. It was a dark morning, but when the police arrived and peered through into his bedroom window, the light was on and he was sitting on the floor near his bed and wouldn't let them in, so they had to break a glass pane in the front door to gain access.

The trigger lock key was kept in that square pottery container in a different part of the room, but the hacky sack (or foot bag) which kids use to play keepy-uppy had been carefully replaced on top of its lid. Would Robin Bain have gone to such trouble if he was about to shoot himself?

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/

I've left the pics at their original size so as not to lose detail...

DB said when he first returned he didn't turn the lights on.  I can relate to this as I sometimes go out running early in the morning and return when it's still dark.  I often do things in darkness or half dark as I don't like bright lights on straight away.  Plus the lights on can wake others up who are still sleeping. 

Which pot was the key in brown or blue?  It looks to me like it would be possible to lift the lid remove the key drop the lid and keep everything else in position including the stress ball if that's what it is.   

I haven't listened to the MB podcasts but will do later time permitting - thanks for uploading. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Beynen
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2017, 03:17:51 PM »
Just catching up  8(0(*

 From Cynric Temple-Camp in his new book, in a rare moment where he gets it right.

All I can say is that people can and do have odd ideas, and pathologists are certainly not immune. As G.G. Kelly put it, talking about ballistic evidence in murder cases: I soon learned the gun spoke eloquently, sincerely and truthfully; I have found that people sometimes fall a little short in this regard.

Meanwhile, fresh today is this Ian Binnie interview with the rugged Kim Hill.

Profound, lucid, lethal to NZ government.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201853679/justice-ian-binnie-compensating-david-bain

Watch carefully the adjustments to society that flow.
You Bamber people should LISTEN UP!!!

Thanks for uploading this Samson.  Very interesting and makes a lot of sense to me.  I like the argument about the fight ie RB and SB were more evenly matched in terms of physicality.  If DB was the perp it is likely he would quickly take SB out in a hand-to-hand fight with minimum of fuss given the different size in statue.  Also as pointed out DB ran competitively so likely to have good aerobic capacity.  I note a skipping rope hanging up in his bedroom too.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2017, 05:30:21 PM »
I've just listened to podcast 2:  Mrs Bain, the Diary and the Devil. 

It seems clear Mrs Bain was seriously mentally unwell.  She spent days, or longer, in bed; made her own medicines consisting of urine and phlegm; saw the Devil everywhere; was very overweight and desperate to resume her sex life with her husband.  All commentators refer to the properties as dirty and uhygienic.  At one stage she was living outside in the caravan as she thought the Devil was in the house.  This women was in desperate need of psychiatric treatment.

Many said the children run around naked in PNG.  Sounds to me the children should have been removed by social services but maybe they were all able to fall under the radar in PNG.  DB and Arawa could barely read and write when they returned to Dunedin.  So much for their mother's home schooling.       

Is it possible Mrs Bain was the perp and DB moved the rifle to spare his mother's reputation?  Hence her lens in SB's bedroom? 

Fascinating that these two cases of familcide with sole surviving sons also have matriarchs with mental illness, obsessed with the Devil and Christianity.   

The Bambers actually seem quite 'normal' compared with the Bains. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2017, 05:40:04 PM »
Did DB say SB was in the habit of borrowing clothes or items in general?  I thought it was the latter.  I can think of a reason a 14 year old boy might borrow a pair of white opera gloves: a white opera gloved hand might make a refreshing change from an ungloved hand!  Apologies if this sounds inappropriate but we're all adults and imo I think this is a distinct possibility.  This might also account for the blood staining and location found.  SB was 14 yoa and DB 22 yoa so the gloves were probably a loose fit on SB and may have come off during the fight.  Alterantively they may have been in or on the bed and became blood stained from SB's gsw's to his hand and head.   

Why would DB leave the blood stained gloves in SB's bedroom?  Why not hide them or put them in the washing machine with the rest of the washing eg the green jumper? 

DB apparently passed out shortly after he discovered his family dead/murdered and attributed the bruises and marks to a collision with furniture.  Dr Pryde who examined DB at around 11pm didn't observe any scratches to his chest.  These marks were supposedly observed days later by a prison officer.

We see the same thing in JB's case where AP claims he observed small marks on JB's hands and yet the CoA  refuted this claim.  Even AE observed on her record cards JB's hands and arms were free from any marks.  EP inspected JB's hands at a much later date using a special light and found no marks.  And yet SC's unexplained graze to her abdomen is written off as irrelevant.

I don't think DB would have taken too kindly to his brother if he abused his newly bought opera gloves. The rifle was heavily smeared so maybe the gloves were used to wipe it down, but in the spaced-out condition he claimed to be in, DB simply forgot about washing them with the other laundry.

DB might not have removed his shirt for the examining doctor, whereas he'd no alternative for the strip-search.

Clothes not items according to the further amended Binnie Report...

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2017, 05:56:12 PM »
I don't think DB would have taken too kindly to his brother if he abused his newly bought opera gloves. The rifle was heavily smeared so maybe the gloves were used to wipe it down, but in the spaced-out condition he claimed to be in, DB simply forgot about washing them with the other laundry.

DB might not have removed his shirt for the examining doctor, whereas he'd no alternative for the strip-search.

Clothes not items according to the further amended Binnie Report...

Where did the blood smearing on the rifle come from?  Was SB beaten with it?  I thought he was strangled with his own tshirt? 

I would like to see more forensic evidence on the gloves:

- blood stain analysis - what do the stains represent?  Ie the perp wearing?  Wiping some surface eg rifle?  Or innocent contamination from SB?  Or something else?

- GSR testing

Blood stains on RB's hands were not tested.  Nor scrapings taken from under his nails which may have revealed white cotton fibres from the gloves and/or SB's blood.

Afaik the gloves were not damaged other than the blood stains so I guess this rules out SB wearing them given the gsw to his hand.

According to the vid by Ian Cullen, Dr Pryde carried out a thorough examination of DB on the day of the murders even examining his penis.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2017, 06:07:23 PM »
DB said when he first returned he didn't turn the lights on.  I can relate to this as I sometimes go out running early in the morning and return when it's still dark.  I often do things in darkness or half dark as I don't like bright lights on straight away.  Plus the lights on can wake others up who are still sleeping. 

Which pot was the key in brown or blue?  It looks to me like it would be possible to lift the lid remove the key drop the lid and keep everything else in position including the stress ball if that's what it is.   

I haven't listened to the MB podcasts but will do later time permitting - thanks for uploading. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Beynen

Even with the bedroom light off he must surely have noticed his wardrobe door was wide open and rifle missing, when a search for it should have kicked in, instead of him faffing about washing dirty laundry first.

The hidden key pot was situated well away from the "gun cupboard" (yes, another one) on a writing table/desk, up against the western wall. M van Beynen called the yellow and white ball a hacky sack. If you look closely at the room photo around the centre back of the table there's a small white square. In the close-up photo, this is the piece of paper leaning against the blue egg-shaped pot, but the key was missing from its usual hiding place, in the brown square one to the left.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2017, 06:24:19 PM »
Where did the blood smearing on the rifle come from?  Was SB beaten with it?  I thought he was strangled with his own tshirt? 

I would like to see more forensic evidence on the gloves:

- blood stain analysis - what do the stains represent?  Ie the perp wearing?  Wiping some surface eg rifle?  Or innocent contamination from SB?  Or something else?

- GSR testing

Blood stains on RB's hands were not tested.  Nor scrapings taken from under his nails which may have revealed white cotton fibres from the gloves and/or SB's blood.

Afaik the gloves were not damaged other than the blood stains so I guess this rules out SB wearing them given the gsw to his hand.

According to the vid by Ian Cullen, Dr Pryde carried out a thorough examination of DB on the day of the murders even examining his penis.

Good point!

I don't think anyone was beaten with the rifle, the blood simply splashed on it in the terrific fight with Stephen, and the gloves caused smearing during, and after if they were used to wipe it down. He was known to a scrapper, defending himself well in arguments at school.


Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2017, 06:48:10 PM »
Even with the bedroom light off he must surely have noticed his wardrobe door was wide open and rifle missing, when a search for it should have kicked in, instead of him faffing about washing dirty laundry first.

The hidden key pot was situated well away from the "gun cupboard" (yes, another one) on a writing table/desk, up against the western wall. M van Beynen called the yellow and white ball a hacky sack. If you look closely at the room photo around the centre back of the table there's a small white square. In the close-up photo, this is the piece of paper leaning against the blue egg-shaped pot, but the key was missing from its usual hiding place, in the brown square one to the left.

You are assuming he closed his wardrobe door.  They may well have been left open.  In fact the golf bag looks like it would prevent closure.  If the rifle was kept in the wardrobe then surely it must have been propped up against the back or sides.  It would not be free-standing in the front.  Therefore unlilkely he would notice it missing even with light on.

I think it would be possible to lift the lid on the brown pot, remove the key and put the lid down without disturbing anything.  Cartridges were found in RB's campervan.  Is it possible he had a spare key?  Or even had one cut?  When was the rifle purchased?  I don't see how anything can be read into this either way?  I'm not even sure what the argument is here?  If RB he would leave a mess eg bits disturbed and lid off pot?  Hmmm maybe but then surely if DB was setting the scene he might think along those lines too!?

What do you think about MB being responsible and DB moving the rifle to put the blame on his father and save his mother's reputation?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2017, 07:06:20 PM »
I've just listened to podcast 2:  Mrs Bain, the Diary and the Devil. 

It seems clear Mrs Bain was seriously mentally unwell.  She spent days, or longer, in bed; made her own medicines consisting of urine and phlegm; saw the Devil everywhere; was very overweight and desperate to resume her sex life with her husband.  All commentators refer to the properties as dirty and uhygienic.  At one stage she was living outside in the caravan as she thought the Devil was in the house.  This women was in desperate need of psychiatric treatment.

Many said the children run around naked in PNG.  Sounds to me the children should have been removed by social services but maybe they were all able to fall under the radar in PNG.  DB and Arawa could barely read and write when they returned to Dunedin.  So much for their mother's home schooling.       

Is it possible Mrs Bain was the perp and DB moved the rifle to spare his mother's reputation?  Hence her lens in SB's bedroom? 

Fascinating that these two cases of familcide with sole surviving sons also have matriarchs with mental illness, obsessed with the Devil and Christianity.   

The Bambers actually seem quite 'normal' compared with the Bains.

MB wouldn't have known one end of a rifle from the other, (now where have I read that somewhere before?). It was David's rifle, and he was the licence holder.

DB borrowed MB's spare spectacles after he fell outside and damaged his own during choir practice the previous Thursday. He wore them on the Sunday night prior to the murders, but at the first trial his lawyer said that David had told him he had only used them months before. The lawyer thought this so so serious, he advised the opposition of what he'd said, but the latter didn't pursue it in court.

MB's damaged specs and loose right lens were found on a chair in David's room, whereas the missing left lens was discovered on the floor in Stephen's room under an anorak near his body.

MB had no blood on her person other than her own from a single eye shot, therefore none from any fight with Stephen.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2017, 07:09:10 PM »
Far fewer gsw's in the Bain case compared with WHF and yet far more blood present?  Footprints and blood smears around door frames?  Same calibre rifle and velocity of bullets.  I'm assuming all the bloodstains found within the property originated from SB?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2017, 07:18:43 PM »
You are assuming he closed his wardrobe door.  They may well have been left open.  In fact the golf bag looks like it would prevent closure.  If the rifle was kept in the wardrobe then surely it must have been propped up against the back or sides.  It would not be free-standing in the front.  Therefore unlilkely he would notice it missing even with light on.

I think it would be possible to lift the lid on the brown pot, remove the key and put the lid down without disturbing anything.  Cartridges were found in RB's campervan.  Is it possible he had a spare key?  Or even had one cut?  When was the rifle purchased?  I don't see how anything can be read into this either way?  I'm not even sure what the argument is here?  If RB he would leave a mess eg bits disturbed and lid off pot?  Hmmm maybe but then surely if DB was setting the scene he might think along those lines too!?

What do you think about MB being responsible and DB moving the rifle to put the blame on his father and save his mother's reputation?

One cartridge, a few spent dusty casings and a used target in the caravan, wasn't it?, thought to have no relation to the shootings but from when David first bought the rifle and they were setting it up together.  Robin Bain, like his wife and family, was a hoarder.

Offline Myster

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2017, 07:21:16 PM »
Far fewer gsw's in the Bain case compared with WHF and yet far more blood present?  Footprints and blood smears around door frames?  Same calibre rifle and velocity of bullets.  I'm assuming all the bloodstains found within the property originated from SB?

Stephen's room was swimming in it, the others went unknowingly to their deaths with much less spilled.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2017, 07:25:25 PM »
MB wouldn't have known one end of a rifle from the other, (now where have I read that somewhere before?). It was David's rifle, and he was the licence holder.

DB borrowed MB's spare spectacles after he fell outside and damaged his own during choir practice the previous Thursday. He wore them on the Sunday night prior to the murders, but at the first trial his lawyer said that David had told him he had only used them months before. The lawyer thought this so so serious, he advised the opposition of what he'd said, but the latter didn't pursue it in court.

MB's damaged specs and loose right lens were found on a chair in David's room, whereas the missing left lens was discovered on the floor in Stephen's room under an anorak near his body.

MB had no blood on her person other than her own from a single eye shot, therefore none from any fight with Stephen.

But apparently RB helped DB sight the rifle.  How do you account for the cartridges (spent or unspent) in his campervan?

Yes I understand the implication of the lens/glasses.  I guess the inference is that DB engaged in the fight with SB and the glasses came off and the lens dislodged.  He then replaced the glasses in his bedroom and forgot about the lens.  But it seems the prosecution wants it both ways eg washed the green jumper but was careless and left behind the blood stained gloves and dislodged lens. 

RB didn't have any blood on his person either, did he?!  Well he did actually have a speck on a nail that wasn't analysed. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 07:34:53 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?