A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.

[Samson]

Filming only starts in 12 months, then reckon on another twelve for editing and scheduling. A long wait for a drama/doc which ends at the first trial, and lets viewers reach their own conclusions.

Do you think David Bain should sue their asses off?

Would you wish to if your life times and current medical conditions were being fictionally filmed and everyone at the local hostelry regarded you as a curiosity whose legitimate life had been deemed irrelevant? I guess DB is better off than caged Bamber, but I am quite disgusted at this general process.

[Samson]

Our fine friend in NZ is finishing the Binnie transcript with more attention to detail. I will post more soon.
Holly, the more I consider it the better I see a reasonable solution being derived from the internet community communing with influential people.

[Myster]

Do you think David Bain should sue their asses off?

Would you wish to if your life times and current medical conditions were being fictionally filmed and everyone at the local hostelry regarded you as a curiosity whose legitimate life had been deemed irrelevant? I guess DB is better off than caged Bamber, but I am quite disgusted at this general process.

The David Bain we knew no longer exists (with his new ID), so what harm will a documentary with no conclusions reached do to his reputation.

[Holly Goodhead]

The David Bain we knew no longer exists (with his new ID), so what harm will a documentary with no conclusions reached do to his reputation.

I don't think he was given a new identity by the NZ gov eg Maxine Carr, Karen Matthews.  It seems to me he has taken on his wife's surname probably to protect his son.  This may even have been at his wife's insistence.

Unless he gets his ears pinned back he sort of sticks out!  Plus he refuses to give up red knitted jerseys based on MB's patterns! 

[John]

Do you think David Bain should sue their asses off?

Would you wish to if your life times and current medical conditions were being fictionally filmed and everyone at the local hostelry regarded you as a curiosity whose legitimate life had been deemed irrelevant? I guess DB is better off than caged Bamber, but I am quite disgusted at this general process.

Clearly the film will be based on facts which are known and will not speculate on who was responsible.  The viewer will be left to make up their own mind.

[Samson]

Clearly the film will be based on facts which are known and will not speculate on who was responsible.  The viewer will be left to make up their own mind.

The known facts, or more commonly described simply as facts, combine to make a modal logic irrefutable proof, Robin Bain killed his family then shot himself.
He wrote a note to David, not a suicide note.

[John]

The known facts, or more commonly described simply as facts, combine to make a modal logic irrefutable proof, Robin Bain killed his family then shot himself.
He wrote a note to David, not a suicide note.

I disagree, there is no proof Robin Bain typed the message on the computer.  As for irrefutable proof, I have yet to see any.  The evidential contradictions in this case are too numerous to be ignored thus why the ambiguity over David Bain's alleged involvement.

[Holly Goodhead]

I disagree, there is no proof Robin Bain typed the message on the computer.  As for irrefutable proof, I have yet to see any.  The evidential contradictions in this case are too numerous to be ignored thus why the ambiguity over David Bain's alleged involvement.

I agree there are many evidential contradictions and no irrefutable proof either way.  I don't know enough about the case to have any strong views, although as it stands I am inclined to see DB as innocent.  Sadly the evidential contradictions were mainly brought about by the police not processing evidence properly and/or destroying it.  In DB's case it cannot be said he attempted to lay the blame on RB resulting in the police prematurely writing the case/soc off as murder/suicide.  DB was treated as a suspect from the off and charged shortly afterwards.

IMO it is totally unacceptable that 2 of the wealthiest countries in the world by GDP per capita run such shambolic justice systems.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Ian Binnie seems easy to contact

https://www.arbitrationplace.com/ian-binnie

(and not bad for 78 Holly  )

Yes quite dashing even at 78!  I am sure he would be delighted to receive one of my long rambling emails about JB's case  &%+((£

I note from his CV he was at McGill uni in 1960 so he might even have known SC's birth maternal grandfather, Eric G Jay, who at the time was Prof of Theology at McGill.  I am sure he will be have some awareness of the case.

[Samson]

I agree there are many evidential contradictions and no irrefutable proof either way.  I don't know enough about the case to have any strong views, although as it stands I am inclined to see DB as innocent.  Sadly the evidential contradictions were mainly brought about by the police not processing evidence properly and/or destroying it.  In DB's case it cannot be said he attempted to lay the blame on RB resulting in the police prematurely writing the case/soc off as murder/suicide.  DB was treated as a suspect from the off and charged shortly afterwards.

IMO it is totally unacceptable that 2 of the wealthiest countries in the world by GDP per capita run such shambolic justice systems.

Needless to say I totally disagree on this.
Your open mindedness epitomises the on the one hand on the other hand nonsense that Binnie describes, Holly. This idea that proof remains ever absent is just wrong. Our friend Charlie Wilkes even errs delivering this sublime cautionary note. I consider the case against David Bain as having a probabilty of being 0.00% recurring of being correct, and since you have Karam's tome at hand I invite you to consider your own evaluation and present it here.

[Samson]

Yes quite dashing even at 78!  I am sure he would be delighted to receive one of my long rambling emails about JB's case  &%+((£

I note from his CV he was at McGill uni in 1960 so he might even have known SC's birth maternal grandfather, Eric G Jay, who at the time was Prof of Theology at McGill.  I am sure he will be have some awareness of the case.

The rest of the transcript is close, it is a raw and egregious wound that Judith Collins delivered. There will be a realistic way of engaging this excellent man, drawing his attention, I will do some homework.

[John]

At David Bain's second trial in 2009, his aunt, Jan Clark, went into some detail of conversations she had with him when he stayed at their home immediately following the murders. 

Well worth listening to for anyone who hasn't already trawled through the podcast.

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" from 00.06.00

On the Tuesday evening David read an article about the murders in the local newspaper and appeared distressed, his uncle took him up to the Clark's bedroom for some privacy. A short while later Jan Clark followed him up and found him sitting on the bed with his head in his hands.  She recalls saying to him that that was why they didn't want him to read the paper to which David Bain replied, "They lied to me...they weren't asleep...they knew they were going to die...he had to look them in the eye and shoot them".

Interestingly, the newspaper article did not contain any details as to how his three siblings died.

http://stuff.libsyn.com

[John]

When asked at the second trial if David Bain had talked about himself, about his condition, his girlfriend stated, "Umm...when we were talking about the 20 minutes that he couldn't account for, he said that he had some injuries that he did not know how he had got
and he had a bump on his head that he pointed out to me".

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" at 00.22.35

http://stuff.libsyn.com

[Holly Goodhead]

Needless to say I totally disagree on this.
Your open mindedness epitomises the on the one hand on the other hand nonsense that Binnie describes, Holly. This idea that proof remains ever absent is just wrong. Our friend Charlie Wilkes even errs delivering this sublime cautionary note. I consider the case against David Bain as having a probabilty of being 0.00% recurring of being correct, and since you have Karam's tome at hand I invite you to consider your own evaluation and present it here.

Samson Justice Binnie concluded on page 144 of his report:

"471.  In response to the Minister’s Mandate letter I conclude that it is more likely than not
that David Bain is factually innocent".   

I agree with the above statement but I also agree with John in that if you're looking for absolutes none exist.

The problem as I see it is that the public in general want absolute proof of innocence or guilt when often it doesn't exist and in any event our judicial systems don't require such.  The system is advesarial and based on 'not guilty' or 'guilty beyond reasonable doubt'.

[Holly Goodhead]

When asked at the second trial if David Bain had talked about himself, about his condition, his girlfriend stated, "Umm...when we were talking about the 20 minutes that he couldn't account for, he said that he had some injuries that he did not know how he had got
and he had a bump on his head that he pointed out to me".

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" at 00.22.35

http://stuff.libsyn.com

The bump to his head was apparently caused when he passed out from the shock and hit some furniture.