13/06/96 - RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW of Sarah Louise SAUNDERS
Page 01 02
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Person Interviewed: Sarah Louise SAUNDERS
Place of Interview: Brentwood Police Station
Date of Interview: 13 June 1996
Time commenced: 7.44pm
Time Concluded: 8.18pm
Duration of Interview: 34 minutes
Tape Reference no's 42GB/879/96-6
Interviewing Officer(s): Philip NORTON Detective Constable
Other Person(s) Present: Dean CHAPPLE Detective Constable
DC NORTON
This interview is being tape recorded at Brentwood Police Station, Thursday the 13th June 1996, the time is now 7.44 pm. I'm Philip NORTON a Detective Constable from the Central Detective Unit, Police Headquarters. Here with me is Dean CHAPPLE.
DC CHAPPLE
I'm Detective Constable 537 Dean CHAPPLE stationed at South Woodham Ferrers Police Station.
DC NORTON
To interview Sarah, if you can just acknowledge your presence Sarah.
SAUNDERS
Yes Sarah SAUNDERS.
DC NORTON
Thank you very much. Sarah you still have your rights and you can seek free legal advice at any time whilst you're in Police custody, do you understand that.
SAUNDERS
Yes I do.
DC NORTON
Now are you happy for this interview to continue without the presence of a solicitor.
SAUNDERS
Yes.
DC NORTON
Okay. We've had a quite a break now, have you had something to eat.
SAUNDERS
Yes thank you, I've had some toast.
DC NORTON
Good and you feel okay and refreshed enough to continue with the interview.
SAUNDERS
Yes I do.
DC NORTON
Right you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention something when questioned which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that.
SAUNDERS
Yes.
DC NORTON
Now there's been a quite a delay now Sarah, it's not been our desire at all to delay you at all today.
SAUNDERS
Okay.
DC NORTON
As I keep saying to you, we're looking to, for you to have the opportunity to say what you will um and we're not looking to detain you unnecessarily.
SAUNDERS
Okay.
DC NORTON
Um it's been a problem with getting a reviewing officer which is the, it's a lady inspector that you've just seen, she's had to come all the way from Harlow, that's just the way it's happened unfortunately and that's delayed us by some hours.
SAUNDERS
Okay.
DC NORTON
As I said but it's had chance for you to get your thoughts together and let you have a chance to think.
SAUNDERS
Okay.
DC NORTON
Anything more we need to say before we start.
DC CHAPPLE
No, no.
DC NORTON
Okay Sarah we're in a position where you've obviously said quite a lot today and you've said about and you've tried to explain things that have happened that could look bad on you and you've had your chance to say. What we feel is that we ought to give you the opportunity of seeing um the evidence that is at hand, that is against Michael STEELE and Jack WHOMES in relation to the murders of Pat TATE, Tony TUCKER and Craig ROLFE. If you are to be believed that you were not a party to their deaths, that you weren't in the know that this was going to happen on the 6th December, that you hadn't arranged for yourself to be with Mark that night as an alibi which we explained to you earlier (pause). I've spoken to you on a previous interview about the evidence of Darren NICHOLLS and about he will say that you informed Michael STEELE that there was a threat on his life by Pat TATE. I've told you about that and I would urge you again during this interview to explain that to us and what your intentions were when you told Michael STEELE, what was you hoping to achieve by doing that and if it was for honourable purposes, if you understand what I mean.
SAUNDERS
Yes.
DC NORTON
Then I would urge you that that this is the time and the place to speak your mind and tell us why. The other bit of particular interest from Darren NICHOLLS' evidence is that he will say when Michael STEELE returned to the car having shot Pat, he said to NICHOLLS words to the effect of you can't believe what that silly cow's Sarah's just done, she's phoned Pat on the mobile on the way here. You phoned Pat TATE at 6.44/45 pm on the 6th December, is that correct.
SAUNDERS
Yes.
DC NORTON
We believe at that time Michael STEELE was in company with Patrick TATE, and they were driving towards Rettendon and that at approximately 7 o'clock Craig, Pat and Tony were shot dead by Michael STEELE and Jack WHOMES (pause) you unfortunately Sarah, phoned Pat (pause) during the last moments of his life (pause). We will show that mobile phones, I don't know if you understand how they work, but they work on an antenna basis where they go to the nearest radio mast, and the signal goes up and then it goes up to the satellite, and we will show that the phones that evening of Michael STEELE and Jack WHOMES were firstly in the area of Brentwood, in the area of Childerditch where they met Pat, Tony and Darren, Pat, Tony and Craig at the Half Way House, they then drove to the Hungry Horse at Rayleigh where Mickey STEELE left his car and got in the back of the car with Pat and that when they left there on the way to Rettendon is when you phoned him (pause). Michael STEELE' s phone was showing as being in the area at the right time, Darren NICHOLLS says that Mickey STEELE was with Pat, Tony and Craig, the beacons show the phones being in the relevant area at the time (pause). Donna JAGGERS will give evidence that they were going to meet Mickey STEELE that night (pause) and I believe that in, if you're to believe, I think at the back of your mind there's a nagging doubt that Michael STEELE killed Pat, Tony and Craig, was there at the time when they were shot dead (pause). Are you alright.
SAUNDERS
Yeah.
DC NORTON
Is there anything you want to say. Pause.
SAUNDERS
Um (long pause) don't know (pause) um I don't know what, I don't know what to say.
DC NORTON
I would like you to tell us the truth about what you told Michael STEELE and the reasons why you told him. Pause.
SAUNDERS
Um (long pause) um I err I don't know when, I'd been to the bungalow one day, don't know, I don't know what how it, Pat said it but um he said that um something I don't know I think it, I was there, I can't remember why I went round there and um he said that um something about Mick he said um that he was gonna um up North, I don't know a deal or something um and he wasn't coming back and he was laughing (long pause). Crying.
DC NORTON
Take your time.
SAUNDERS
Oh I'm sorry.
DC NORTON
It's okay. Pause. Crying
DC NORTON
Have a cigarette, are you alright.
SAUNDERS
Yeah.
DC NORTON
Take your time.
SAUNDERS
This wasn't meant to happen, I didn't know something would happen.
DC NORTON
What wasn't meant to happen.
SAUNDERS
I didn't know this would happen (pause) I was just worried about Mick, and so I phoned him and told, I met him and said to him what Pat had said and I just said don't go up North (pause) and I just thought that was the end of it, I didn't think anything like this would happen (pause).
DC NORTON
You were frightened for Michael.
SAUNDERS
Yeah but I didn't think anything like this would happen, honestly I didn't (pause).
DC NORTON
What did you think would happen when you told him.
SAUNDERS
I don't know I just, I just thought that he wouldn't go and do whatever it was that he was gonna do.
DC NORTON
You said something about going up North.
SAUNDERS
Yeah I can't remember what Pat said, but he something about going up North and he wasn't coming back again and he laughed and I said um but he's you're friend and he just laughed (pause).
DC NORTON
Why did Pat tell you that.
SAUNDERS
I don't know.
DC NORTON
He didn't just come out with it.
SAUNDERS
He did, he was like that, and he did.
DC NORTON
But he hasn't talked to you about anything else.
SAUNDERS
I know, he hadn't spoken to me about anything else and this day he was like he had to tell people things (pause).
DC NORTON
What did he specifically say.
SAUNDERS
Just um, I remember we was in the kitchen um and err I don't know why I went round there (pause) don't know, he just said that, I don't know why he said, I can't remember why he said it but I remember like I was shocked cause he just come out with it (pause).
DC NORTON
About when was this Sarah, do you know.
SAUNDERS
I don't know, no, I think I was um.
DC NORTON
Sort of after you'd been to Portugal.
SAUNDERS
Yeah (pause) yeah.
DC NORTON
At Gordon Road.
SAUNDERS
It happened, he said it at Gordon Road, yeah.
DC CHAPPLE
Had the Ostend trip taken place.
SAUNDERS
Um I think so, I think so, I can't remember but I think it had, um cause I think, yeah I think I was living at Sue's when he went to Ostend (pause).
DC NORTON
Did he say anything else.
SAUNDERS
No, I remember saying oh don't be stupid, be quiet or something (pause).
DC NORTON
What did he actually say about how he was, what he was gonna do.
SAUNDERS
He didn't say, say what he was gonna do, he just laughed and that he was not coming back again.
DC NORTON
And what did you take that to mean.
SAUNDERS
That something would happen to Mick.
DC NORTON
That something would happen.
SAUNDERS
Hum. Pause.
DC NORTON
And what.
DC CHAPPLE
Sony.
DC NORTON
And what would that something be.
SAUNDERS
Well I just, I don't know, I just that something would happen to him and he wouldn't come back.
DC NORTON
Meaning that he would be killed.
SAUNDERS
Yeah.
DC NORTON
How soon after did you meet Michael to tell him.
SAUNDERS
I phoned him up I think um that afternoon or sort of quite soon afterwards (pause).
DC NORTON
Hum.
SAUNDERS
And um I went and met him.
DC NORTON
Where did you meet him.
SAUNDERS
Um at the A12, it's a, I think there's a MacDonalds up there near Chelmsford.
DC NORTON
Hum.
SAUNDERS
And um I phoned him up on his mobile phone and asked him to meet me.
DC NORTON
From where.
SAUNDERS
I don't know, I can't remember.
DC NORTON
Was you on a mobile.
SAUNDERS
Was I.
DC NORTON
Hum.
SAUNDERS
No I didn't have a mobile.
DC NORTON
Telephone box.
SAUNDERS
It might've been or I might've gone back, I might've been living at Great Gregory, I'm not sure, I can't remember where I phoned him from.
DC NORTON
But you arranged to meet him at MacDonalds.
SAUNDERS
Yeah.
DC NORTON
At what time of day.
SAUNDERS
I, um, it was in the afternoon.
DC NORTON
Right, so just tell me what happened, you drove up there on your own.
SAUNDERS
No I had Jordan with me.
DC NORTON
In what car.
SAUNDERS
Um (pause) the Golf I think it would've been.
DC NORTON
Right.
SAUNDERS
And um (pause) I just met him.
DC NORTON
What in MacDonalds or the car park.
SAUNDERS
In the car park.
DC NORTON
Yeah, what was he in.
SAUNDERS
Um (pause) I don't know I think he was in his truck, I don't, I can't remember actually.
DC NORTON
Right and what happened.
SAUNDERS
He was in his track, and um we just sat on the bench outside MacDonalds and I just said to him (pause) just said to him what um Pat had said (pause) um (pause) it wasn't that long, I don't think anyway.
DC NORTON
What did you say to him.
SAUNDERS
I just repeated that he said he was gonna go up North and not come back again.
DC NORTON
What did Michael say.
SAUNDERS
I can't remember, he just sort of, I don't know, just sort of um.
DC NORTON
Think about it.
SAUNDERS
I think he said he wasn't gonna go or something, don't worry, he's not gonna go, something like that.
DC NORTON
Did he say, did he seem to know what you were talking about going up North.
SAUNDERS
No I don't think he did (pause) I don't think he did but I remember he said don't worry he's not going to go (pause).
DC CHAPPLE
Could you just clarify there please Sarah, you say he said don't worry he's not gonna go, is this what Michael said.
SAUNDERS
Yeah I think so.
DC CHAPPLE
And he was referring to Pat wasn't gonna go or.
SAUNDERS
No I think he was referring to himself, don't worry I'm not going to go, he's not going to go. Pause.
DC NORTON
So had he decided not to go because of what you told him.
Page 01 02