Author Topic: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.  (Read 164510 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2019, 11:07:18 AM »
Tate and Saunders had a volatile, "on off" relationship. 

Records show that Saunders called Tate just a few minutes before the assumed time of death.  They spoke for around 3-4 minutes.  At trial, much was made of this call.  Steele, who was sitting next to Tate in the Range Rover whilst he spoke with Saunders, went on to tell Nicholls about the conversation.  Nicholls was then able to cite this incident in one of his Police interviews, long before he was confronted with the call logs. 

According to Saunders, Tate had threatened "to send Mickey up north".  She told Steele this at a meeting in Chelmsford.

Steele and Whomes had invested a great deal in their smuggling operation.  Tate and Tucker posed a real threat to this.  They were out of control.

According to one documentary SS was living in a women's refuge.

We would really need to see mobile records over a long period to see who called who, when, where and the duration to see what was typical and what wasn't.   As I said Tate had a young child.  If SS is the mother then that might well be a reason they needed to communicate ie say goodnight to daddy!  In any event I don't really understand the importance attached to this call other than potentially it provided the police something to feed to Nicholls.  Which mast/cell site was the call routed through?

What evidence exists showing Steele was sitting next to Tate in the Range Rover?  According to all concerned there's no forensic evidence linking Steele and Whomes to the murders.  Helena Kennedy QC who acted for the pair at their last appeal thought it strange at 50 mins in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHOggndSvew

As I understand it DNA evidence wouldn't necessarily be found at soc even if the perps were inside the Range Rover but I don't understand the lack of footprints and don't buy into the fact that the snow melted them all away.

What evidence exists showing Tate had made threats about Steele and/or SS met with Steele?  In any event it seems to me Tate was a loud-mouthed, half-witted thug who went about threatening anyone and everyone especially when he was high on a cocktail of drugs.

What evidence exists showing Nicholls was aware of the call and volunteered this info to police rather than the police provided him with this info in order to bolster a case against Steele and Whomes?

As I said in an earlier post it seemed to me for the operation to work these people needed each other.  Steele had the brains and was capable of driving boats and flying planes.  Tate and Tucker had the muscle, controlled the clubs and the distribution network.

Numerous individuals/organisations wanted to take out Tate and Tucker.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2019, 11:24:01 AM »
I do take your point Holly. 

Without Nicholls testimony you are left with a considerable amount of circumstantial evidence, but enough to convict?  I don't think so.

Even having borne in mind Nicholls undoubted history of dishonesty, I still find his account of the importations and murders utterly convincing.  He was able to go into minute detail with his account matching up with call logs, others statements, etc.  Some have inevitably suggested that Nicholls was fed this information by the police.  Even if you believe that, I, feel sure that Nicholls would not have been able to stand up to several days of cross examination. 

It was interesting that the jury believed his account of the murders and importations, whilst disbelieving his story about supplying a weapon to Steele. 

Like many other cases, there is a plethora of mis information to be found about this case.  However, available also are an enormous amount of transcripts taken from dozens of police interviews, statements and the trial itself.  Reading through these will give you your best hope of uncovering the truth.

I think Nicolls was an electrician by profession?  I don't know many daft electricians.  And I'm reminded of the 4 13 year old schoolgirls who lied for a laugh at the trial of Stefan Kiszko.  The girls run rings around the trial judge and defence QC. 

According to the solicitor in the following, prior to Nicholls testimony he was caught with a large quantity of drugs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHOggndSvew

I believe Nicholls spent a small amount of time on remand? 

Can you point me in the right direction to offical docs?   8((()*/
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 11:29:58 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2019, 11:29:10 AM »
Steele had been convicted in 1985 for smuggling.  He was handed a 9 year sentence.

So a conviction for a repeat offence was likely to significantly longer?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2019, 11:32:41 AM »
They were arrested on 13/5/96 in relation to the drug importations.  Steele was further arrested for the murders the following day at 22.45 towards the end of his second interview.

When was Nicholls arrested for possessing a large quantity of drugs in the boot of his car? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2019, 12:11:11 PM »
Did the murdered trio arrive at Workhouse Lane of their own accord or were they told to drive there under duress? 

Apparently Tate and Tucker were holding mobiles which would suggest they drove there of their own accord.  But what happens to the hands upon sustaining fatal gsw's? 

And apparently Rolfe's hands were gripping the steering wheel with his foot on the brake? 

Workhouse Lane is adjacent to farmer Peter Theobalds's farm (who found the murdered trio) and his shooting range.  I'm not suggesting he was involved just mentioning this as it might well be a place the perp(s) were familiar with if they attended the shooting range and/or the location was singled out as the sound of gunshots would not be out of the ordinary.

https://goshooting.org.uk/ads/whitehouse-farm-clay-shooting-ground/

I am sure this is just a coincidence but Leah Betts father who at the time of her death was a retired police officer running a clay pigeon shooting business was taken in for questioning and had his firearms checked:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/crime-lord-offered-kill-drug-9846203
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2019, 12:55:15 PM »
The AA route planner shows the approx locations of the following:

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CWorkhouse%20Ln,%20Chelmsford%20CM3,%20UK%7C%7C0.594598%7C51.659120%7CtoNode=0%7CHockley,%20UK%7C%7C0.651664%7C51.607887

A = The cell/mast Whomes first call to Nicholls was routed through timed at 18.59.21 lasting 1 second

B = Location of Range Rover.

C = The cell/mast Whomes second call to Nicholls was routed through timed at 15.59.32 lasting 4 seconds

I'm assuming the defence independently verified the authenticity of the phone records obtained (via the police?) from the tel comm providers? 

Tate received a call on his mobile from an address where it appears Sarah Saunders was at 18.44 lasting 4 minutes.  Which cell/mast was this call routed through?

When Nicholls received the two calls on his mobile from Whomes which cell/mast were these calls routed through.

According to the CoA doc:

Each mobile telephone making or receiving a call does so by way of a radio signal, which is routed through one of many local transmitters, commonly called 'cell sites', which provide a general coverage throughout the country. Skilled interrogation and analysis of the computer records will show the cell site through which each outgoing and incoming call made from or to a mobile telephone was routed.

It seems to me the emphasis is very much on attempting to pinpoint the location of Whomes without attempting to pinpoint the location of Nicholls and Tate when they received their calls or maybe I've just overlooked it?



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2019, 01:01:01 PM »
The above link doesn't save a via option to add a third location so in order to see the cell/mast points in relation to the lapprox location of the Range Rover you will need to type in White House Farm Near Rettendon.

So AA link above shows A Whomes first call to Nicholls and B Whomes second call to Nicholls
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2019, 01:07:27 PM »
Oops sorry I'm making a bit of a pigs ear of this!

Whomes first call was from the Ingatestone cell/mast marked A and the second call was from the Hockley cell/mast marked B.

ww.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CIngatestone,%20UK%7C%7C0.389906%7C51.673794%7CtoNode=0%7CHockley,%20UK%7C%7C0.651664%7C51.607887
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2019, 01:16:18 PM »
The first call was approx 11.6 miles from Range Rover and the second call approx 6.7 miles from Range Rover.  So assuming the mobile phone records are accurate it shows Whomes was in the vicinity of where the Range Rover was found. 

But this was their patch where the gang hung out:

Tate - Basildon
Tucker - Fobbing
Rolfe - Chafford Hundred
Nicholls - I've read Braintree and Grays
Steele - Great Bentley
Whomes - Brockford

All were Essex boys except Whomes/Brockford is in Suffolk close to Essex border.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline sika

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2019, 01:34:16 PM »
When was Nicholls arrested for possessing a large quantity of drugs in the boot of his car?
The same day as all the others, including Steele, Whomes, Corry, Russell Tate and two serving police officers. 

The police had been gathering evidence on all concerned for months, before making their move. 

Offline sika

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2019, 01:39:37 PM »
According to one documentary SS was living in a women's refuge.

We would really need to see mobile records over a long period to see who called who, when, where and the duration to see what was typical and what wasn't.   As I said Tate had a young child.  If SS is the mother then that might well be a reason they needed to communicate ie say goodnight to daddy!  In any event I don't really understand the importance attached to this call other than potentially it provided the police something to feed to Nicholls.  Which mast/cell site was the call routed through?

What evidence exists showing Steele was sitting next to Tate in the Range Rover?  According to all concerned there's no forensic evidence linking Steele and Whomes to the murders.  Helena Kennedy QC who acted for the pair at their last appeal thought it strange at 50 mins in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHOggndSvew

As I understand it DNA evidence wouldn't necessarily be found at soc even if the perps were inside the Range Rover but I don't understand the lack of footprints and don't buy into the fact that the snow melted them all away.

What evidence exists showing Tate had made threats about Steele and/or SS met with Steele?  In any event it seems to me Tate was a loud-mouthed, half-witted thug who went about threatening anyone and everyone especially when he was high on a cocktail of drugs.

What evidence exists showing Nicholls was aware of the call and volunteered this info to police rather than the police provided him with this info in order to bolster a case against Steele and Whomes?

As I said in an earlier post it seemed to me for the operation to work these people needed each other.  Steele had the brains and was capable of driving boats and flying planes.  Tate and Tucker had the muscle, controlled the clubs and the distribution network.

Numerous individuals/organisations wanted to take out Tate and Tucker.
Steele & Whomes certainly didn't need Tate and Tucker.  With a highly effective smuggling operation in place, there would have been no shortage of dealers to sell on the drugs. 

Tate and Tucker were becoming a liability by drawing much attention to themselves.  Not least because of the death of Leah Betts. 

Offline sika

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2019, 01:44:30 PM »
I think Nicolls was an electrician by profession?  I don't know many daft electricians.  And I'm reminded of the 4 13 year old schoolgirls who lied for a laugh at the trial of Stefan Kiszko.  The girls run rings around the trial judge and defence QC. 

According to the solicitor in the following, prior to Nicholls testimony he was caught with a large quantity of drugs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHOggndSvew

I believe Nicholls spent a small amount of time on remand? 

Can you point me in the right direction to offical docs?   8((()*/
I work with electricians on a very regular basis.  I have definitely come across some "daft ones"!

I've not actually been able to ascertain whether Nicholls was a qualified electrician or rather, just an electricians labourer.  Having read through his statements and court testimony, I have formed the opinion that he is indeed, daft. 

Offline sika

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2019, 02:12:28 PM »
14/03/96 - Statement of DONNA LYNN JAGGERS

NAME: DONNA LYNN JAGGERS
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 26 27101969

Who states:- This statement consisting of 013 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

DATED: 140396
D L JAGGERS (SIGNED)

I am the common law wife of Craig ROLFE whom had been my partner for seven years. I have been asked about Craig's association with Tony TUCKER and Pat TATE and their involvement with drug dealing, and the circumstances surround their deaths. Craig had been involved with TUCKER for approximately three or four years and was registered as a Director of TUCKER's security company running Nightclub doors.

This was in name only and I know that Craig never had any involvement in running the business. His association started as a result of TUCKER buying drugs from Craig. They then became more involved as time went on and they started doing drugs deals together. In early 000095 Craig was not being very active and was not completing many deals therefore he did not have much money.

He was being promised that a large deal was due which would provide him with plenty of money, in the mean time we were scraping to get by. I later learnt from Craig that a person called Mickey 'The Pilot' who I now know to be called Michael STEELE was a friend of Pat TATE who in turn was a friend of Tony TUCKER. STEELE I understood to be a pilot who brought drugs into the country, and I understood that he had been in prison for it.

Craig told me that STEELE was a ruthless person who really didn't think very much of other people. In early 000095 I was aware that TATE was in prison and I recall TUCKER and one other person, whose details I do not know, running around getting TATE's money together for him to finance the deal. I am fairly sure that John MCCARTHY had some of TATE's money.

Craig told me that this was happening and stated that STEELE was happy to continue bringing it in until they were all millionaires. I can not say when the deal took place but I can say that at that time I witnessed the change over of the drugs. Mickey STEEL drove to Longwood Stables in Dry Street, Basildon, Essex, where TUCKER had two horses. I arrived there with Craig and met Tony who was with his horses.

We waited for Mick to arrive which he did in a blue Toyota RAV4. Although I had remained in our car and I had my back to where Mickey STEELE had parked, I was able to look over my left shoulder towards the rear of his car. I saw STEELE take a large dark coloured kit bag, measuring approximately three feet in length by about twelve to fifteen inches in diameter, from the boot of his car.

By the way he was holding the bag it appeared to be very heavy. He handed it to TUCKER who put it in the boot of our car which was a Vauxhall Senator. Craig then got back into our car and drove to another location. Craig took the holdall out of the boot and took it to a "safe house' where all the drugs were stored. I went into the house with Craig who then placed the bag on the table.

He opened the bag up and I saw that it contained bars of brown cannabis resin which were all individually wrapped in a clear film. I was present when he checked that it was good quality by burning and smelling a sample and then counting the bars. I am unable to say how many bars there were. I have only met Mickey STEELE on a couple of occasions and that was only in passing.

I have not actually spoken to STEELE. On each occasion when I have seen him he has always made me very aware that he does not want me to look at him. The last deal which STEELE carried out for them was approximately two weeks after TATE was released from prison which was at the end of 001095. Craig told me that Mickey STEELE was arranging to bring in sixty thousand pounds worth of cannabis from abroad.

Craig put in seven thousand pounds, TUCKER put in twenty thousand pounds and TATE and a fourth person called Barry DOORMAN were putting in the remainder of the money. A couple of days before the cannabis was collected I went with Craig to TUCKER's home address in Fobbing, Essex, to hand him the seven thousand pounds which was in a Tesco's carrier bag. The money was handed to TUCKER who was in turn going to hand it to STEELE.

We were only at the house for about five minutes and as Craig and I were leaving and walking down the driveway towards our car, I saw Mickey STEELE walking up the driveway towards the house. He passed by us and nodded to Craig. He did not speak or acknowledge myself. STEELE had come from a white car which I believe he had been driving. I can not say what the car was but it was clean and had the appearance of an average family saloon.

There was a second male in the car who had short dark hair and appeared to be a little bit younger than STEELE. He appeared clean shaven but I did not take any further notice. We got into our vehicle which I believe was a Vauxhall Frontera which had been loaned to TATE by Barry DOORMAN, and left. A couple of days later Craig told me that STEELE had been arrested by Customs Officers whilst he was taking his boat from the water.

This was following him dropping the cannabis off at a safe point on the coastline about three miles away. That same day TATE was arrested during the early afternoon having crashed TUCKER's Porsche car in Southend. I was at work and would have finished at 1500 hours that day. Craig picked me up from work and told me what had happened to STEELE. About 1600 hours TUCKER phoned Craig on his mobile phone and told him about his car and what TATE had done to it.

About 1800 hours that day Craig and I drove to Southend Police Station to collect TATE. Once in the vehicle I became aware that TATE already knew about STEELE being arrested. He then used Craig's mobile phone to ring Jackie STEELE. He asked her if everything was 'safe'. I took it that it was as a result of TATE's manner and subsequently what he said to Craig. He said that it was all 'safe', I took this to mean that the drugs had not been found.

On this occasion I did hot know where the meeting between STEELE and the others was to take place but after a couple of days Craig brought his share of the cannabis round to our house in Chafford Hundred. Because the cannabis had already been sold on, the same day Craig and I took it up to the Golders Green area of North London where Craig handed it onto a coloured male called Gary.

No money was exchanged because the cannabis was what's known as 'laid on' Gary for him to sell and then pay Craig. The agreed amount per kilo worked out to be approximately ten thousand pounds for the lot. Already the others had placed their own share with other dealers but very quickly they started receiving phone calls telling them that the cannabis was very poor quality.

I learnt through Craig that TATE and TUCKER were very agitated because STEELE during this time was trying to push the price that he wanted up. In affect this was eating into their personal profit from the deal. They contacted STEELE and told him that they wanted their money back because the cannabis was rubbish. STEELE didn't want to take it back. TATE and TUCKER then started putting real pressure on STEELE to recover the money.

By pressure I mean through intimidation. I can not say exactly what they did, because I do not know, but I recall hearing conversations they had with STEELE on the phone where they were renting and raving at one another and pacing up and down. I understand that STEELE finally agreed to return the cannabis and get their money back for them. TATE in a fit of temper about the whole affair smashed each slab before it was returned.

STEELE had told them that a parcel the same size had been picked up by mistake and that's how the problem had come about. I am not certain but I think that on this occasion STEELE had to collect the cannabis from TUCKER's home address in order to return it. STEELE arranged to hand the money back to them on the continent. He was going to return the goods to his suppliers and then take the money to a pre-arranged location where he was to meet Craig, TUCKER and TATE.

The day they were going to meet coincided with Tony TUCKER's birthday which was the 171100. His girlfriend, Anna, had pre-booked a surprise night in a London hotel prior the trip to collect the money being made. Therefore Tony was not going to go. They wanted a group of people to go over in order that the money could be divided up to bring it back into this country.

Craig asked me to go but I refused because I was not happy about getting involved and didn't want to go. The eventual party consisted of Barry DOORMAN and his wife who went in their own car. Pat TATE and Craig with three girls. Donna GARWOOD, Liz FLETCHER and Gaynor HAYZER. They travelled in the Range Rover and left via Harwich. Craig did tell me where they went to but I can not remember the location or where they stayed.

I know that they stayed overnight in a hotel and were met by Mickey STEELE. I was told that he met TATE and they went into a separate room. They returned the next day with the money. Whilst all this was going on I was told that STEELE was promising TATE that he had a 'big job' lined up for him. Craig told me that STEELE had approached TATE and asked him to nick someone elses gear from them.

I understood that STEELE had been asked by a London based drugs firm to import 30 kilos of Charlie (Cocaine) and I believe that he was going to bring it in by plane from Holland. He had told Pat TATE that he was going to be given fifty thousand pounds as an up front payment to take to Holland and he was going to bring the Charlie back in company with a member of the London firm.

The idea was that Pat TATE and Tony TUCKER would rob the firm of the Charlie when it arrived over here. STEELE had stated that he wanted to share it between them and had told the firm that he was going to land near to Clacton. Craig told me that STEELE was planning to actually land in South Essex but I never knew exactly where this was likely to be. Craig, Tony and Pat had previously obtained a machine gun from a man called Mad Mick BOWMAN and the details of this are subject of a previous statement.

TATE and TUCKER were going to use the gun on the man from the firm in order to take the Charlie. I knew that they had made sure the gun worked but I did not know how far they were planning to go when they robbed the firm. STEELE was going to land the plane and TATE and TUCKER were then going to take the complete load. It was going to be split, eventually, ten kilos each, and was going to be taken to John MCCARTHY.

Craig told me that MCCARTHY was going to pay them nearly one million pounds for the load which was for TATE or TUCKER to divide. Not long after Craig had told me about this he told me that TATE and TUCKER had decided that he was going to drive the load away once it had been taken and go to MCCARTHY'S with it. They had told Craig that they intended to rip STEELE off by cutting 3 kilos of the Cocaine into ten kilos of impure.

This would have resulted in TATE and TUCKER having twenty seven kilos between them. The remaining three kilos was going to be taken to Mick BOWMAN and he was going to cut it for them. I do not know what the arrangements were to get the three kilos to BOWMAN or to get the ten kilos of impure back to STEELE. By this time I was getting very worried by Craig's involvement and told him that I didn't want him have any part in it.

He told me that STEELE didn't know that he was going to be driving and he convinced me that he wasn't as heavily involved as the other two in what was going to happen. He also talked about the money which was likely to be coming their way and how that would enable us to go ahead with whatever plans we wanted. I realised that I wasn't going to be able to talk him out of it and, albeit I really didn't want him to go through with it, I gave up in the end.

I believed that by this he was in too deep. Craig told me that the money had been paid to Mickey STEELE who had taken it to Holland. The weather had changed and there was now snow on the ground. Craig told me this was causing them delay and they were waiting for it to clear. On the day of the murder I was working as normal and was due to finish at 1500 hours. That evening Tony TUCKER and his girlfriend Anna, Craig and I and Pat TATE and a girlfriend named Clare, were all going to the Global Net Cafe restaurant in Romford.

We were going out because they believed they were coming into money and they were going to have a pre-celebration. Graig phoned me at work in the afternoon and told me that Mickey STEELE had contacted Pat TATE and said that he wanted to meet with TATE and TUCKER to go and look at somewhere they could land a light aircraft. Craig mentioned to me that they had been to or were going to, I can't remember which, to the T.G.I. Fridays restaurant at Lakeside. I later found out that this had been TATE, TUCKER, and Craig and a person railed Peter CUTHBERT.

I do not know why they met or what was discussed. I left work at 1500 hours that day and went home. The meal at Romford was booked for 2000 hours. I was busy wrapping Christmas presents when Craig returned home with our daughter Georgie. We were at home together for about an hour and a half. Craig told me that I was to be ready for 1900 hours to go out. He was going with the others to look at the air strip and then would come to collect me.

Craig wanted me to have something new to wear for the evening and took me to the Lakeside shopping centre at 1745 hours. He was driving the Range Rover and left me to go and pick Tony TUCKER up. Craig told me that he was going because he didn't want Tony to be in a position to say that he hadn't had any part in the arranging. I also understood that Craig was going to collect Tony TUCKER from his home and they were going to meet TATE and STEELE later. I did not have contact from Craig, TATE or TUCKER after this point.

D L JAGGERS SIGNED STATEMENT
TAKEN PLACE:
TIME:
DATE: 140396
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE:
OFFICERS SIGNATURE:

Offline sika

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2019, 03:07:36 PM »

13/06/96 - RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW of Sarah Louise SAUNDERS
Page 01 02

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW

Person Interviewed: Sarah Louise SAUNDERS
Place of Interview: Brentwood Police Station
Date of Interview: 13 June 1996
Time commenced: 7.44pm
Time Concluded: 8.18pm
Duration of Interview: 34 minutes
Tape Reference no's 42GB/879/96-6
Interviewing Officer(s): Philip NORTON Detective Constable
Other Person(s) Present: Dean CHAPPLE Detective Constable

DC NORTON
This interview is being tape recorded at Brentwood Police Station, Thursday the 13th June 1996, the time is now 7.44 pm. I'm Philip NORTON a Detective Constable from the Central Detective Unit, Police Headquarters. Here with me is Dean CHAPPLE.

DC CHAPPLE
I'm Detective Constable 537 Dean CHAPPLE stationed at South Woodham Ferrers Police Station.

DC NORTON
To interview Sarah, if you can just acknowledge your presence Sarah.

SAUNDERS
Yes Sarah SAUNDERS.

DC NORTON
Thank you very much. Sarah you still have your rights and you can seek free legal advice at any time whilst you're in Police custody, do you understand that.

SAUNDERS
Yes I do.

DC NORTON
Now are you happy for this interview to continue without the presence of a solicitor.

SAUNDERS
Yes.

DC NORTON
Okay. We've had a quite a break now, have you had something to eat.

SAUNDERS
Yes thank you, I've had some toast.

DC NORTON
Good and you feel okay and refreshed enough to continue with the interview.

SAUNDERS
Yes I do.

DC NORTON
Right you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention something when questioned which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that.

SAUNDERS
Yes.

DC NORTON
Now there's been a quite a delay now Sarah, it's not been our desire at all to delay you at all today.

SAUNDERS
Okay.

DC NORTON
As I keep saying to you, we're looking to, for you to have the opportunity to say what you will um and we're not looking to detain you unnecessarily.

SAUNDERS
Okay.

DC NORTON
Um it's been a problem with getting a reviewing officer which is the, it's a lady inspector that you've just seen, she's had to come all the way from Harlow, that's just the way it's happened unfortunately and that's delayed us by some hours.

SAUNDERS
Okay.

DC NORTON
As I said but it's had chance for you to get your thoughts together and let you have a chance to think.

SAUNDERS
Okay.

DC NORTON
Anything more we need to say before we start.

DC CHAPPLE
No, no.

DC NORTON
Okay Sarah we're in a position where you've obviously said quite a lot today and you've said about and you've tried to explain things that have happened that could look bad on you and you've had your chance to say. What we feel is that we ought to give you the opportunity of seeing um the evidence that is at hand, that is against Michael STEELE and Jack WHOMES in relation to the murders of Pat TATE, Tony TUCKER and Craig ROLFE. If you are to be believed that you were not a party to their deaths, that you weren't in the know that this was going to happen on the 6th December, that you hadn't arranged for yourself to be with Mark that night as an alibi which we explained to you earlier (pause). I've spoken to you on a previous interview about the evidence of Darren NICHOLLS and about he will say that you informed Michael STEELE that there was a threat on his life by Pat TATE. I've told you about that and I would urge you again during this interview to explain that to us and what your intentions were when you told Michael STEELE, what was you hoping to achieve by doing that and if it was for honourable purposes, if you understand what I mean.

SAUNDERS
Yes.

DC NORTON
Then I would urge you that that this is the time and the place to speak your mind and tell us why. The other bit of particular interest from Darren NICHOLLS' evidence is that he will say when Michael STEELE returned to the car having shot Pat, he said to NICHOLLS words to the effect of you can't believe what that silly cow's Sarah's just done, she's phoned Pat on the mobile on the way here. You phoned Pat TATE at 6.44/45 pm on the 6th December, is that correct.

SAUNDERS
Yes.

DC NORTON
We believe at that time Michael STEELE was in company with Patrick TATE, and they were driving towards Rettendon and that at approximately 7 o'clock Craig, Pat and Tony were shot dead by Michael STEELE and Jack WHOMES (pause) you unfortunately Sarah, phoned Pat (pause) during the last moments of his life (pause). We will show that mobile phones, I don't know if you understand how they work, but they work on an antenna basis where they go to the nearest radio mast, and the signal goes up and then it goes up to the satellite, and we will show that the phones that evening of Michael STEELE and Jack WHOMES were firstly in the area of Brentwood, in the area of Childerditch where they met Pat, Tony and Darren, Pat, Tony and Craig at the Half Way House, they then drove to the Hungry Horse at Rayleigh where Mickey STEELE left his car and got in the back of the car with Pat and that when they left there on the way to Rettendon is when you phoned him (pause). Michael STEELE' s phone was showing as being in the area at the right time, Darren NICHOLLS says that Mickey STEELE was with Pat, Tony and Craig, the beacons show the phones being in the relevant area at the time (pause). Donna JAGGERS will give evidence that they were going to meet Mickey STEELE that night (pause) and I believe that in, if you're to believe, I think at the back of your mind there's a nagging doubt that Michael STEELE killed Pat, Tony and Craig, was there at the time when they were shot dead (pause). Are you alright.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC NORTON
Is there anything you want to say. Pause.

SAUNDERS
Um (long pause) don't know (pause) um I don't know what, I don't know what to say.

DC NORTON
I would like you to tell us the truth about what you told Michael STEELE and the reasons why you told him. Pause.

SAUNDERS
Um (long pause) um I err I don't know when, I'd been to the bungalow one day, don't know, I don't know what how it, Pat said it but um he said that um something I don't know I think it, I was there, I can't remember why I went round there and um he said that um something about Mick he said um that he was gonna um up North, I don't know a deal or something um and he wasn't coming back and he was laughing (long pause). Crying.

DC NORTON
Take your time.

SAUNDERS
Oh I'm sorry.

DC NORTON
It's okay. Pause. Crying

DC NORTON
Have a cigarette, are you alright.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC NORTON
Take your time.

SAUNDERS
This wasn't meant to happen, I didn't know something would happen.

DC NORTON
What wasn't meant to happen.

SAUNDERS
I didn't know this would happen (pause) I was just worried about Mick, and so I phoned him and told, I met him and said to him what Pat had said and I just said don't go up North (pause) and I just thought that was the end of it, I didn't think anything like this would happen (pause).

DC NORTON
You were frightened for Michael.

SAUNDERS
Yeah but I didn't think anything like this would happen, honestly I didn't (pause).

DC NORTON
What did you think would happen when you told him.

SAUNDERS
I don't know I just, I just thought that he wouldn't go and do whatever it was that he was gonna do.

DC NORTON
You said something about going up North.

SAUNDERS
Yeah I can't remember what Pat said, but he something about going up North and he wasn't coming back again and he laughed and I said um but he's you're friend and he just laughed (pause).

DC NORTON
Why did Pat tell you that.

SAUNDERS
I don't know.

DC NORTON
He didn't just come out with it.

SAUNDERS
He did, he was like that, and he did.

DC NORTON
But he hasn't talked to you about anything else.

SAUNDERS
I know, he hadn't spoken to me about anything else and this day he was like he had to tell people things (pause).

DC NORTON
What did he specifically say.

SAUNDERS
Just um, I remember we was in the kitchen um and err I don't know why I went round there (pause) don't know, he just said that, I don't know why he said, I can't remember why he said it but I remember like I was shocked cause he just come out with it (pause).

DC NORTON
About when was this Sarah, do you know.

SAUNDERS
I don't know, no, I think I was um.

DC NORTON
Sort of after you'd been to Portugal.

SAUNDERS
Yeah (pause) yeah.

DC NORTON
At Gordon Road.

SAUNDERS
It happened, he said it at Gordon Road, yeah.

DC CHAPPLE
Had the Ostend trip taken place.

SAUNDERS
Um I think so, I think so, I can't remember but I think it had, um cause I think, yeah I think I was living at Sue's when he went to Ostend (pause).

DC NORTON
Did he say anything else.

SAUNDERS
No, I remember saying oh don't be stupid, be quiet or something (pause).

DC NORTON
What did he actually say about how he was, what he was gonna do.

SAUNDERS
He didn't say, say what he was gonna do, he just laughed and that he was not coming back again.

DC NORTON
And what did you take that to mean.

SAUNDERS
That something would happen to Mick.

DC NORTON
That something would happen.

SAUNDERS
Hum. Pause.

DC NORTON
And what.

DC CHAPPLE
Sony.

DC NORTON
And what would that something be.

SAUNDERS
Well I just, I don't know, I just that something would happen to him and he wouldn't come back.

DC NORTON
Meaning that he would be killed.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC NORTON
How soon after did you meet Michael to tell him.

SAUNDERS
I phoned him up I think um that afternoon or sort of quite soon afterwards (pause).

DC NORTON
Hum.

SAUNDERS
And um I went and met him.

DC NORTON
Where did you meet him.

SAUNDERS
Um at the A12, it's a, I think there's a MacDonalds up there near Chelmsford.

DC NORTON
Hum.

SAUNDERS
And um I phoned him up on his mobile phone and asked him to meet me.

DC NORTON
From where.

SAUNDERS
I don't know, I can't remember.

DC NORTON
Was you on a mobile.

SAUNDERS
Was I.

DC NORTON
Hum.

SAUNDERS
No I didn't have a mobile.

DC NORTON
Telephone box.

SAUNDERS
It might've been or I might've gone back, I might've been living at Great Gregory, I'm not sure, I can't remember where I phoned him from.

DC NORTON
But you arranged to meet him at MacDonalds.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC NORTON
At what time of day.

SAUNDERS
I, um, it was in the afternoon.

DC NORTON
Right, so just tell me what happened, you drove up there on your own.

SAUNDERS
No I had Jordan with me.

DC NORTON
In what car.

SAUNDERS
Um (pause) the Golf I think it would've been.

DC NORTON
Right.

SAUNDERS
And um (pause) I just met him.

DC NORTON
What in MacDonalds or the car park.

SAUNDERS
In the car park.

DC NORTON
Yeah, what was he in.

SAUNDERS
Um (pause) I don't know I think he was in his truck, I don't, I can't remember actually.

DC NORTON
Right and what happened.

SAUNDERS
He was in his track, and um we just sat on the bench outside MacDonalds and I just said to him (pause) just said to him what um Pat had said (pause) um (pause) it wasn't that long, I don't think anyway.

DC NORTON
What did you say to him.

SAUNDERS
I just repeated that he said he was gonna go up North and not come back again.

DC NORTON
What did Michael say.

SAUNDERS
I can't remember, he just sort of, I don't know, just sort of um.

DC NORTON
Think about it.

SAUNDERS
I think he said he wasn't gonna go or something, don't worry, he's not gonna go, something like that.

DC NORTON
Did he say, did he seem to know what you were talking about going up North.

SAUNDERS
No I don't think he did (pause) I don't think he did but I remember he said don't worry he's not going to go (pause).

DC CHAPPLE
Could you just clarify there please Sarah, you say he said don't worry he's not gonna go, is this what Michael said.

SAUNDERS
Yeah I think so.

DC CHAPPLE
And he was referring to Pat wasn't gonna go or.

SAUNDERS
No I think he was referring to himself, don't worry I'm not going to go, he's not going to go. Pause.

DC NORTON
So had he decided not to go because of what you told him.

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Offline sika

Re: Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2019, 03:14:18 PM »
13/06/96 - RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW of Sarah Louise SAUNDERS
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SAUNDERS
I don't know if he was sort of knew that he was gonna go anyway or um if err, don't know if he'd arranged to go or whatever but it, we didn't sort of go in to it but (pause) I don't know (pause).

DC NORTON
Why was there a big falling out Sarah, was it because of the Ostend.

SAUNDERS
I didn't think there was a big falling out to be honest, I really, really didn't think there was. Pause.

DC NORTON
Did you know that Pat went out to meet Mickey in Ostend.

SAUNDERS
Pause. Yeah I did but, I thought um it was all sorted out and I thought that Pat was happy with that (pause).

DC NORTON
Did you know Mickey had returned a lot of money to Pat for a drug deal that had gone wrong.

SAUNDERS
Yeah I heard that he'd sort of, I don't know where I heard that but I heard that it did and that's why I couldn't understand there being any animosity between them.

DC NORTON
How much money was handed over, do you know.

SAUNDERS
I don't know, I just heard it was a large amount, I don't know eighty thousand or something, I don't know.

DC NORTON
And where did you hear that from.

SAUNDERS
I can't remember, there's been, I know a lot of people have spoke about it, um, I don't know.

DC NORTON
Annette.

SAUNDERS
Possibly, I don't know, I really don't know, a lot of people have said things, I don't know.

DC NORTON
Have you ever approached Michael about it.

SAUNDERS
No.

DC NORTON
You've never asked him about the money that was returned.

SAUNDERS
No.

DC NORTON
Why's that.

SAUNDERS
Um (pause) I just um, don't know I, it was never anything to do with me (pause) um just never, it wasn't anything to do with me.

DC NORTON
How soon after the meeting at MacDonalds did it arrive at the 6th of December.

SAUNDERS
I don't know um (pause).

DC NORTON
What day of the week was it on.

SAUNDERS
I haven't got a clue, it was in the week, I don't know when it was though, um (pause) I don't know possibly a couple of weeks but then I don't know because as I say a lot happened in the five weeks his was out anyway um.

DC NORTON
But it was after the Ostend trip.

SAUNDERS
Yeah but it seems like a long time, but I don't know (pause).

DC NORTON
I'll just see if I can confirm the date of the Ostend trip Sarah, I've loads of bits of paper in this folder. Pause.

DC NORTON
Is there anything you want to ask Sarah while I'm looking.

DC CHAPPLE
Did Pat ever go up North.

SAUNDERS
Not to my knowledge, I don't know, as I say I mean that day I was really surprised that he um said that because sort of he'd not sort of said anything like that to me um (pause) um about any of his dealings or anything, so um.

DC CHAPPLE
What did he tell you about going up North.

SAUNDERS
That was all, literally all he said um.

DC CHAPPLE
Who he was going with or anything.

SAUNDERS
He didn't, I don't even know if Pat was going or not, I know he said that Mick was going and he wasn't going to come back.

DC CHAPPLE
Did he speak about anybody else going.

SAUNDERS
No,..... that, but that is all that he said.

DC CHAPPLE
Right.

DC NORTON
I haven't got the specific date here Sarah, but I think it was (pause) I'm not sure it was mid, mid November to about the.

DC CHAPPLE
I don't know about the 20th or something.

DC NORTON
20,20th November, so it was after that.

SAUNDERS
Yeah, I'm sure it was after that.

DC NORTON
But before.

SAUNDERS
I'm sure it was after that.

DC NORTON
Before the week of Pat's death then it would be within a couple of days of the Ostend trip and within a week to ten days of Pat's death, Pat's death, is that about right.

SAUNDERS
Yeah probably.

DC NORTON
Yeah. Have you not since Pat's death then milled over.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC NORTON
That.

SAUNDERS
I have yeah, but um, I heard that Pat had so, certainly the three of them all together had so many enemies that I just didn't ever think (pause) that um (pause) that that was relevant somehow, I don't know why, I just didn't (pause) I suppose sort of um, I don't know I just didn't think it was relevant, I just thought they had so many enemies between, enemies between them and (pause) and I don't know. Pause.

DC NORTON
There was no way that Michael would have known that you'd phoned Pat at quarter to seven unless he was in the car with him at the time.

SAUNDERS
But then I think that Pat would have said I'm with Mick or urn.

DC NORTON
But you hadn't discussed his dealings with Mick with you at all had he. You didn't know that they were arranging.

SAUNDERS
But he usually, you know if he was with somebody that I knew he'd say I'm with so and so and he just said I've with some people at the moment.

DC CHAPPLE
Of course Darren will say that that was one of Mick's concerns when he came back to the car that he thought Pat would say I'm with Mick because he knew that if that had happened then their plans of obviously shooting the three couldn't have gone ahead (pause) because he mentions that to Darren. Long pause.

DC NORTON
Is there anything else you haven't told us.

SAUNDERS
No (pause) no.

DC NORTON
Can you see how this has all happened today Sarah (pause) and how all this could have been prevented if (pause) you'd said all this before (pause) urn. Pause.

SAUNDERS
I know.

DC NORTON
You see how it throws a different light on everything.

SAUNDERS
Yeah. Pause.

DC NORTON
And how it could've been interpreted, if Darren is telling us the that you told Michael that his life was under threat and you hadn't come forward to tell us since Pat's death.

SAUNDERS
I just thought he had to know, in the end I mean, that he wasn't, Mick wasn't capable of doing that to anybody. Pause.

DC NORTON
Well I'm afraid it's true Sarah, (pause). He suckered them in (pause) can you see how relevant that is to the prosecution against Michael STEELE (pause) he knew Pat planned to kill him.

SAUNDERS
Pat always things though.

DC NORTON
Sorry say that again.

SAUNDERS
He always said silly things, he didn't, I don't know he mean them.

DC NORTON
You didn't think he meant it.

SAUNDERS
Well I don't know what I thought.

DC NORTON
You took it seriously enough Sarah to go and warn him.

SAUNDERS
But I thought if I didn't warn then something happened (pause) how would I feel.

DC NORTON
Like you do now probably. Pause.

DC NORTON
If that's true Sarah, you did it for the right reasons.

SAUNDERS
Yeah but look what's happened (long pause). Crying.

DC NORTON
It's the truth isn't it, I mean. Pause.

DC NORTON
Is there any other way then in hindsight, looking at it you could have done anything different. Pause.

SAUNDERS
I don't know.

DC NORTON
Right.

SAUNDERS
I should have just kept out of it shouldn't I and it probably wouldn't of happened.

DC NORTON
But if it's true you did what you thought was best.

SAUNDERS
Yeah, it's not always the right thing is it. Pause.

DC NORTON
Is there anything else that we've covered on previous interviews that (pause) you held back any information.

SAUNDERS
No.

DC NORTON
Is there anything more you've got to say to us.

SAUNDERS
No (pause) no.

DC NORTON
Do you understand the importance of that evidence if, if that's used.

SAUNDERS
Yeah. Pause.

DC NORTON
It's quite a major development in this interview situation and this day Sarah, and I think it's only right now that you have time to collect your thoughts (pause) it's a brave step, but it's the right step I believe (pause) if justice is to be done, Sarah (pause).

DC CHAPPLE
Since um, since you told Mickey that at the MacDonalds yeah, you obviously had contact with him and Jackie prior to the deaths.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC CHAPPLE
What if any conversation that you've had with Mick, is there any along the same sort of lines.

SAUNDERS
No.

DC CHAPPLE
Did he ask you anything on whether Pat had said anything further.

SAUNDERS
Not as far as I remember no (pause) no. I just thought that um he just wouldn't go up North or whatever he was gonna do or whatever and it would all be alright (pause).

DC CHAPPLE
So other than that one time when you spoke with him and warned him off, you never spoke to him since, or he's never brought that up.

SAUNDERS
No (pause) no I don't think so.

DC CHAPPLE
Maybe that's something you can think about.

SAUNDERS
Yeah (pause) yeah. Pause.

SAUNDERS
Um what now then.

DC NORTON
Well this, this major development Sarah and it does throw a light on what you've been saying to us before, I need to go and speak to my bosses and tell them what you've done, what you've said and take their advice about the way forward. Pause.

DC CHAPPLE
It might seem a harsh question Sarah, but I'm gonna ask it, um when Pat told you about what would happen to Mickey if he went up North um, could it have been a case that you saw that by telling Mickey, that would give Mickey, that would get Pat out of your life.

SAUNDERS
No not at all no.

DC CHAPPLE
Okay (pause) and your only reason of telling him was obviously to stop him going up North.

SAUNDERS
I was scared for him that was all. Long pause.

DC NORTON
Is there anything more you want to say.

SAUNDERS
No.

DC NORTON
Sure, any questions.

SAUNDERS
No.

DC NORTON
Sure.

SAUNDERS
Yeah.

DC NORTON
We'll conclude the interview there at 8.18.

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